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Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

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Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#451
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very large and unexpected things do happen. About 10 years ago, I ended up with about a $60K bill to correct a chimney that was basically collapsing and pulling the house down with it. But I agree with your general point. In the case of my paid-off house, I figure it's about [EDITED] $1K per month (counting some big projects) for upkeep (depending on how you count things that are nice-to-dos rather than strictly nece…

That should be covered by homeowners insurance, at least in part. That your old crumbling house was under-insured is no argument against homeownership in any way shape or form, just an unfortunate anecdote.

That kind of thing isn't covered by most insurance unless it is caused by a covered kind of event, and the additional cost of insurance to cover it would, of necessity, exceed the expected cost without insurance because insurance companies need to meet all covered costs, plus administration costs, plus turn a profit.

Insurance makes certain costs more predictable at the cost of making them more expensive.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#452
post #374
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good post and a good perspective to take, but its worth pointing out you bought an expensive washing machine, though if its more reliable, then that's probably the better purchase. On good days I do like my house hobby. I mainly bought a house because I kept having to move every year, renting flats in houses where they decided they wanted to sell, or move in themselves, etc. So now only the bank and…

Not so, I bought the cheapest washing machine I could get. I dropped about $1200 cash on a speed queen that'll last me maybe 20 years. Joe 6 pack finances a new LG every three years at 29.99% credit card interest for $600 and thinks I'm getting ripped off. Its just like the situation with hiking boots, I can only afford the $250 boots that last many years, I'm not rich enough to afford the $100 boots that only last o…

A+ post.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#453
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been burned badly in the real estate meltdown, there is a lot more freedom in renting than buying. I'm just now getting slightly inclined to consider buying again, but it would have to be a whopping deal. I've enjoyed renting since at least 2010. I especially like the ability to call the landlord and tell them that the sink is leaking and they need to get it fixed. Or the water heater stopped working, come out…

> there is a lot more freedom in renting than buying There are varying definitions of "freedom" to consider. Sure, there is the freedom of being able to walk away after 12 months to someplace else. But there is also the freedom of being able to plant a garden, or paint your room, or install shelving, or excavate a root cellar, or install a new doorknob, etc, without having to get express written permission from your…

That is almost the entire reason that I like owning. The kitchen looks like I want it to look, the walls are the color I want them to be, the doorbell is wifi, I have a Nest thermostat, and if I don't like that there's a peach tree in the front yard I have it removed (true story!).

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#454
post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until your renter stop paying and if takes you three to six months to evict them or until they trash the place and you have to pay for repairs. Been there. Done that.

This can certainly happen but it's definitely uncommon bordering on rare, especially for folks who keep paying (or with whom you're willing to work out a deal). And running credit and background checks on prospective renters goes a long way toward eliminating folks who are going to be prone to stop paying a lease halfway through.

Things happen. People lose their jobs and according to most banking standards, they expect a 75% occupancy rate when considering rental income.

It only takes one bad tenant who doesn't pay for 3 months over 3 or four years and repair costs to wipe out all of your profit.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#455
post #273

In the housing market there is a useless but with big influence 3rd party that became so ordinary that nobody questions it anymore. In eastern europe after comunist regimes fall houses were very cheap and nobody needed a loan to buy one, they could collect the money in just a few years, this has changed after eu banking entered the markets and loaning become something ordinary to buy a house just like in the west thi…

Well put. Could probably appreciate the genius behind it more if I was not on the short end of that stick.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#456
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interest rates vary pretty widely around the world. Im guessing you might be in Europe where rates are pretty low still. In Australia they never dropped anything like they did in Europe. If you're lucky you can get a loan around 3.9% but lots of ppl are close to 5% here and you can only tax deduct it if its an investment property

Just as an example from Denmark: My parents have a house financed with a load with negative interests.

how does that work? does the bank pay them for taking their money?

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#457

Renting or owning from a purely financial point of view is a relatively straightforward problem and is answered quite nicely with the NY Times Rent vs. Buy calculator (with the caveat that the calculator has not been updated to reflect the new tax laws). That being said, the biggest reasoning mistakes I run across are: 1. "You pay the landlords expenses plus some profit." Not true. The rental market is just that - a…

> There are plenty of landlords who are losing money on their rental property. Only until your current lease term expires, at which point your housing costs will unexpectedly rise (and sometimes quite dramatically). Unless you live in such an undesirable location that the landlord is desperate for any tenant, they aren't crazy enough to agree to a lease on which they'll lose money.

Not true. Landlords may prefer to forgo a new tenant and keep rent increases reasonable for many reasons. The cost of tenant turnover can be very high. They may not want to take the risk of a new tenant over a know good tenant. The local rental market may not support a rent increase.

I have been a landlord and not raised rents many times. I have also been a renter and have had no rent increases or very modest rent increases for many years while renting.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#458
post #272

There's another intangible benefit to owning if you know you're going to stay in the area long term -- you can't be forced out of your home. I was forced out of one home I rented due to owner move-in, which led to a stressful 30 days of trying to find a new apartment in a tight housing market. We managed to find a place outside of the city, but close enough to transit for a manageable commute. And rent was about the…

There's other intangible benefits too. Buying a house is enforced saving. When people have money spare they typically spend it. If as the author suggests people instead invest in the stock market there is constant temptation not to put the money in there in the first place or take the money out because you want to buy something shiny. You can use owning a home as a way of bringing stability. So instead of making plan…

I think that enforced saving is one of the biggest advantages.

Separately, where I live in Australia, there are transactional costs (mostly stamp duty) that make getting in and out of a house a bit of an extra imposition. I remember about 20 years ago, it was suggested that (generally speaking) if you were likely to stay put for about 5+ years, you were better off buying than renting. Otherwise, typically blue chip buys on the stock market with the discipline to keep investing was a better bet.

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#459
post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own my home in a relatively cheap COL area... I would rather rent. Houses nickel and dime you to death. The expenses pile up at both the front and back of the transaction... that is, when you buy and finally sell. Please show me how the small increases in property value multiplies my initial investment. The problem is most people don't move sideways or down... they move up, thus negating any windfall in investment…

> Please show me how the small increases in property value multiplies my initial investment. You're leveraged 5x (say), so you get 5x as much growth. Just pulling numbers out of nowhere, let's imagine you buy a $200k house with 40k down; after ten years the house is worth a nominal $400k which is $300k in today's dollars. You've gained 100k on your initial 40k, whereas if you'd invested the $40k in the stock market a…

>You're leveraged 5x (say), so you get 5x as much growth. Just pulling numbers out of nowhere, let's imagine you buy a $200k house with 40k down; after ten years the house is worth a nominal $400k which is $300k in today's dollars. You've gained 100k on your initial 40k, whereas if you'd invested the $40k in the stock market at the same rate of return you'd only have made 20k.

Your numbers work out because you made them up. The obvious problems:

In most of the country, a $200K house going up to $400K in 10 years is very unlikely. I live in a hot market. I compared the inflation adjusted change in value over 20 years, and it's about 1-2% above inflation. It's unlikely your $200K home will be worth $300K in today's dollars.

The rate of return of the stock market is considerably higher than real estate (over, say, 20 years). So assuming the "same rate of return" is a really bad assumption! Even right before the crash in 2008, over a 20 year period, stocks did better than real estate. I wonder if there is any 30 year period where stocks did not do better!

I'm not in the "renting is better" camp. However, for most people, the leverage will not work out (it has for me, but I just got lucky).

Re: Renting is Throwing Money Away, Right? (2015)

#460

There's another intangible benefit to owning if you know you're going to stay in the area long term -- you can't be forced out of your home. I was forced out of one home I rented due to owner move-in, which led to a stressful 30 days of trying to find a new apartment in a tight housing market. We managed to find a place outside of the city, but close enough to transit for a manageable commute. And rent was about the…

>There's another intangible benefit to owning if you know you're going to stay in the area long term -- you can't be forced out of your home.

Depends on the regulations in your state and the rules of your HOA.

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