How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream • Hacker News Board

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#241

Post by gehsty » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 9:36 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #212

gehsty wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a mix, for now that will include solar, coal, nuclear and wind. I think in the long run this will change to renewable sources + interconnected grids (it’s always sunny / windy / geothermal / waves) somewhere. I’m generally pessimistic on fusion, but then it would cost me my job so I’m bound to be, but is always feels like it’s “50yrs away”

Yes we need a mix but right now we need more (positive) focus on nuclear (and other forms of more exploratory but potentially civilization altering technologies) as it's been almost banned out of existence in the US and Europe. The current discusison is not based on what's optimal technologically but politically and thats in not small part due to some the unfortunate overreach of parts of the environmental organizati…

Agreed on the absurd downvotes!

I think nuclear is quite bad, we've got to transport / process / store nuclear waste for thousands of years. We should probably do anything we can to avoid producing this stuff.

I grew up near where a lot of the worlds nuclear waste is processed and while it does make for lots of good jobs, that last many many lifetimes, I just can't get onboard with new nuclear when it is cheaper to build interconnected grids + renewables (in the UK at least).

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#242

Post by gehsty » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #237

gehsty wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work installing these cables and never heard this discussed, maybe at the voltages / transmission subsea cables work at (220kV, 1000s of amps) makes this effect negligible?

Are they AC? My impression was that practically all vaguely modern undersea cables are high voltage DC.

It depends, when talking about interconnecting cables between countries, yes the majority are DC, both to minimise transmission losses and also to tie together grids working at different frequencies....

In terms of km installed I think it will be HVAC just from the sheer number of offshore windfarms built over the last 10yrs in Europe. These things can be huge - 60km in length, 220kV ~1500A....

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#243

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

gehsty wrote: post #241

ThomPete wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we need a mix but right now we need more (positive) focus on nuclear (and other forms of more exploratory but potentially civilization altering technologies) as it's been almost banned out of existence in the US and Europe. The current discusison is not based on what's optimal technologically but politically and thats in not small part due to some the unfortunate overreach of parts of the environmental organizati…

Agreed on the absurd downvotes! I think nuclear is quite bad, we've got to transport / process / store nuclear waste for thousands of years. We should probably do anything we can to avoid producing this stuff. I grew up near where a lot of the worlds nuclear waste is processed and while it does make for lots of good jobs, that last many many lifetimes, I just can't get onboard with new nuclear when it is cheaper to b…

said in all sincerity.

I would urge you to spend a little more time looking into nuclear you would be quite surprised of how wrong your view of it is.

New reactors can use used uranium which makes the problem even smaller. On top of that, the actual footprint needed to store it is absurdly small if we even had to do that.

In other words Nuclear is the safest greenest form of energy we have (greener than wind or solar etc)

Here is a good primer on some of the myths you probably believe in.

But don't take my word or even the artcles word for it. Investigate and I am pretty sure you will soon see that your belief about nuclear is misguided.

https://thoughtscapism.com/2017/11/04/nuclear-waste-ideas-vs...

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#244

Post by jcun4128 » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

Wow glad I have great internet the footage was great/visual is more direct.

Those turbines appeared to have an upward inclination, curious why that is. Also interesting that the trailing edge near the hub isn't as sharp as the tips probably due to slowest rotation.

Good stuff, those things are seriously massive.

I also like that giant wall monitor with all the 'stats'?

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#245

Post by lelandbatey » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 9:55 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #223

coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

>The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset. So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Where are you getting this assumption from? In hot climates like Arizona, peak energy usage during the summer months is in the afternoon, not the evening. When it's 115 degrees outside, that's when everyo…

The claim that energy usage peaks after sunset comes from the diagram[0] in the OP's link[1].

In the diagram, you can see that solar power peaked at around 3pm on the graphed day, then declined to near-zero by 6pm. Meanwhile, the total load rose steadily throughout the day, peaking at about 9pm before declining.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duck_Curve_CA-ISO_2016-10...

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#246

Post by alex_hitchins » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:08 PM UTC

jabl wrote: post #109

alex_hitchins wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disagreeing with you, but how do you come to the conclusion that Nuclear is safer and also more scaleable?

The first DDG hit for "electricity production deaths per kwh" is https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-d... (Not saying Forbes is a reliable source on this particular statistic, but maybe you can find a more authoritative one if you search?) As for scalability, I guess the argument is that wind is somewhat limited by suitable sites, whereas nuclear produces a lot of power on a small area, with fu…

I believe the current assessment of the saftey are based on how many people have died related to each production method. I was thinking more along the lines of it's safety should there be a disaster or more with risk in mind.

Nuclear power stations of old I thought were located by seas or other large bodies of water for the cooling in an emergency, as we saw with Fukushima. I'd guess newer designed, especially things like Fusion and Molten Salt wouldn't have this same requirement and be inherently 'safer'.

Edit to say - I'd like to see Nuclear given much more attention by governments. As we aren't using a byproduct for generation (as with those used to refine whatever for bombs) we can do it in a much easier and cleaner way without the previous constraints.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#247

Post by coryfklein » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

macmac wrote: post #236

shawabawa3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windmill is a defacto synonym for wind turbines in most english speaking countries

Not in the industry.

Good thing the NYT article isn't a whitepaper directed at industry engineers.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#248

Post by ThomPete » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

alex_hitchins wrote: post #246

jabl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first DDG hit for "electricity production deaths per kwh" is https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-d... (Not saying Forbes is a reliable source on this particular statistic, but maybe you can find a more authoritative one if you search?) As for scalability, I guess the argument is that wind is somewhat limited by suitable sites, whereas nuclear produces a lot of power on a small area, with fu…

I believe the current assessment of the saftey are based on how many people have died related to each production method. I was thinking more along the lines of it's safety should there be a disaster or more with risk in mind. Nuclear power stations of old I thought were located by seas or other large bodies of water for the cooling in an emergency, as we saw with Fukushima. I'd guess newer designed, especially things…

Nuclear killed a ridicules little amount of people compared to many other things even if we included nuclear bombs. Even fukushima is as big a catastrophe as many like to claim.

It's far greener than especially solar, there is almost no waste and most of it can be reused in new reactors. Problem is that it's toxic to be pro-nucleaer in this day and age. And new reactors saftemechanism are done via physics which makes the "china syndrome" impossible.

Agree we need more investment and focus on nuclear but not holding my hopes to hight in this current political environment.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#249

Post by syrrim » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #239

coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

The solution is straightforward - lower consumer electricity rates when power is cheap, and raise them when it is expensive. Consumers will naturally shift the elastic part of their electric demand to when power is cheap. For example, charging the car when power is cheap.

If only consumers were so rational.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#250

Post by cesarb » Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:52 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #228

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Operating a power plant in the middle of the World's largest ocean, then transmitting the power 4500+ miles (7000+ km) across that ocean would be one of the World's major engineering undertakings, and vastly more expensive than any current method of generating electricity.

Agreed. The ocean is just too deep there. I have a better idea for a megaproject: build a dam across the Strait of Gibraltar, and lower the water level of the Mediterranean. You could get an enormous amount of power from a hydroelectric dam in this location (and later another one near Sicily, after the Mediterranean's level is lowered), plus you'd have a huge amount of new land in the area.

> build a dam across the Strait of Gibraltar, and lower the water level of the Mediterranean.

You mean like this? https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-bonkers-reallife-p...