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Bringing people back to the open web

chrishardie.com

51–60 of 95 posts

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#51
I would love this idea to take off and be successful but I have many reservations on the feasibility of such a project. Two are fairly simple: innovation and trusted hosting.

Let’s assume that we have a protocol that allows us to have the same interactions as Facebook/Instagram/Twitter: a multi-media flow of posts, comments, etc. Let’s assume that we have distinct hosts that let you befriend and follow people with a different service, just like we have with email. We can even imagine that those services have internal tweaks (like the integration of Google Calendar in GMail) that provide some network effect, but overall there is a push to make such improvements universal (like providing a compatible .ics file, etc.) and part of the protocol.

I expect that the overall protocol adoption will be slower, so I expect that things like Gif comments that display (rather than a link; admittedly not the most loved feature among HN’s crowd) or editable comment (with a version control system; probably more within HN’s preference) will be slower. I don’t think that most of those project imagine how to address that issue. It’s distinct from open source (which admittedly innovates faster than closed code in the areas that I’m familiar with) and more akin to how no new feature has been adopted by email since probably the 80s.

I also wonder who people would trust with their personal data: intimate conversations, dirty secrets… We’ve learned the hard way that security is hard, and even serious projects like Telegram have had their issue. At the moment, that information is indeed clustered on few servers with a reasonably good security team protecting them. I suspect that more hosts with a lesser team would not really make it safer. You could try extreme dilution, but I suspect that people would not want to host anything themselves and would frown upon letting their nerdy cousin hold the keys of that server, over a cold company who presumably monetise their data but at least is not really expected to pry and gossip. That leaves large-ish commercial entities.

I see that area concentrating fast, like email did, and the upside of using internal features winning people over to two or three platforms, like today. It would be great to have that platform be open and allow you to host your own server compatible with Facebook, but that kind of openness is what got us the latest scandal.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#52
post #11

We did have a way. It was called a kill file. Unfortunately, we don't have adults anymore. We have children that need to be protected from hearing anything they don't like to hear and must be giving the right to shutdown people's speech they disagree with ("heckler's veto").

But kill files didn't work. Many newsgroups were destroyed because people relied on killfiles instead of allowing proper moderating tools.

Trolling your way past a killfile was trivial, and sock-puppeting evolved on Usenet as a troll technique.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#53
post #11

We did have a way. It was called a kill file. Unfortunately, we don't have adults anymore. We have children that need to be protected from hearing anything they don't like to hear and must be giving the right to shutdown people's speech they disagree with ("heckler's veto").

In a walled garden, like facebook, I have a private/public space. I can send out a message to a subset of my friends. The open web does not have these controls.

Further, if one of the people I thought was trustworthy starts abusing that trust, I can kick them out. Because it's a walled garden. I don't have to worry about spam. I don't have to worry about hate speech. I don't have to worry about any of that shit.

Facebook means that I can approve anyone from seeing that content individually. As of now, we don't have an equivalent way to handle that on the open web.

Facebook means I don't have to deal with spam to have a conversation with anyone involved. As of now, the equivalent ways to handle that on the open web take far too much time to be practical.

Facebook, over the last decade, has solved a legitimately hard problem, and I don't see "kill file" as a sufficient solution.

The open web is about public space. Facebook is a more private space.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#54
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Linux only worked because there's many companies contributing to it. So which company would have the resources and reasons for contributing to an entirely open social network, with no way to monetize it?

> But Linux only worked because there's many companies contributing to it. Who says this won't happen as well to an open collaboration platform? Who says companies wouldn't benefit from it, or that they need to monetize it directly? Companies contributed to Linux because they got benefits by participating in the operating system. Open source works like that; adding to a common resource is beneficial for oneself and t…

Of course it could happen.

But we've had open source alternatives for many of these things for many years, and no company has gone to support any of them.

There's no company backing mastodon, and very little support for similar tools.

Of course it could happen. But it's not happening.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#55
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saddest part is how the younger generation turned college campuses, the place where radical & worldview-challenging ideas could thrive, into places wherein you're protected from any such challenging ideas.

No, they didn't. The sad part is people apparently believing that minorities being subjected to a bunch of hate speech directed toward them are "challenging ideas."

I think it's funny you were immediately downvoted for this. It betrays this crowd as a population that largely hasn't experienced the kind of the politely-expressed but openly hateful things that are passed off as challenging. Or how quickly people berate groups as delicate because they meet for the purposes of not feeling like shit for a few hours.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked. So was Stalin. If you’re really in favor of free speech, then you’re in favor of freedom of speech for precisely the views you despise. Otherwise, you’re not in favor of free speech. Besides, censoring Nazis and other undesirable types (e.g. ISIS propaganda) is ineffective at shutting them up and endears potential recruits to them. It would likely be more effec…

Absolute free speech is not a sustainable position, because it conflicts with other basic rights, freedoms and laws. Would you not accept that directly inciting violence against specific groups or individuals must be banned?

Just to clarify: under Brandenburg v. Ohio (395 U.S. 444 (1969)), such speech can be punished (by the government) only if it is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"; abstract advocacy of illegal violence is protected speech.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#57
post #35
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lost contact with many people because none of them respected me constantly asking to keep in touch outside of facebook - email, for example. I don't have lighter words, even if I consider them friends. Moving on from grammar and culture (in my read, I wasn't offensive, merely stated a fact), what actual solutions, proposals, ideas, can you contribute?

Culture is the issue. The long standing Internet tradition of "I didn't intend to be offensive, so it's fine that I was, and I should continue to be" is at the root of the entire problem. Most people don't care for that kind of environment. And so we splinter, and wall off. We're using technological restrictions as a substitute for cultural norms. And so, my original statement still stands - if you want to change the…

So... how and what do you propose to reach people who keep using walled gardens, despite what's known about them, and that they even have people trying to get them to used something else?

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#58
technology isn't going to solve a culture problem. I also don't think that the walled gardens are even part of the problem. It's that anonymity gives too many people the license to treat others poorly. I'm not saying we need to take anonymity away, we need to change the culture (of the world) that regards mutual respect as a default even when remaining anonymous.

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#59
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very common and entirely overblown hypothesis. Sure, there are student protests about a tiny number of speakers each year. But there have been student protests about anything ever since there have been students. > More importantly, though, we can see here why reaching broad conclusions from sets of anecdotes is inadvisable. There are around 2,600 four-year universities in the United States. Friedersdorf trie…

If you want a book that uses national polls conducted over the past 40+ years, plus a little bit of anecdotal evidence to make the data tangible, I recommend iGen by Jean M. Twenge[0]. There's a noticeable trend that the kids of this upcoming generation are ill-prepared for college and expect the authorities to protect them. In highschool, they're less likely to go out without their parents or work a part-time job (A…

Why is less premarital sex a "positive note"?

Re: Bringing people back to the open web

#60
post #18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason we're in the mess that we are is the shit show the open web was. People were delighted to have a walled garden where they only communicated with friends, instead of random drive-by trolls in the open. And frankly, it's understandable. A place that justifies bullying and hate speech as a good thing, with mumblings of "b.. b.. but free speech", is not a place where anybody wants to spend their time. (Except…

Didn't really work either though. Trolls gonna troll no matter what.

The walled gardener is the murderer. Zucks Algo pisses you off from time to time so you will come back for that feeling of beeing part of a superior group.
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