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How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

nytimes.com

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Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#141

Post by digikata »

coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

It only takes a little bit of battery capacity to shift the duck curve, and is a nice lead into the market ramping up volume to cover more and more capacity and time. It's also an power time-cost arbitration model which is very comprehensible to financial backers.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#142

Post by lyk »

boxcardavin wrote: post #136
dschuetz wrote: post #120

I'm sorry, stupid question, but exacly how much power do those big ones generate? 20 times more than what? This actually most crucial tidbit isn't even covered in that article, or am I blind?

The biggest ones produce over 5 megawatts at peak capacity, I think someone has built over 10 megawatts but I'm not sure. 5 megawatts is a pretty useless figure for most people to imagine, and I think imagining it in units of homes-powered isn't great either because we don't have a sense of the heat or kinetic energy equivalent because our homes are quiet machines. A 260 horsepower car (think new minivan) at full thr…

50 minivans!

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#143

Post by ams6110 »

fulafel wrote: post #137
coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

If possible, but it may only get worse. If EVs become more prevalent, it will only increase the evening demand as most people will charge when they get home from work. Sure, maybe with timers you can shift that to midnight or something, but it's still happening at a time when Solar adds nothing.

You can't just toss out something like HVDC grids as a quick solution. That kind of infrastructure takes decades to build out.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#144

Post by sfifs »

fulafel wrote: post #137
coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

When power gets more expensive in the evenings, a lot of heating/cooling/charging loads may shift in time. Also, hvdc grids let you transmit over a couple of timezones. (And wind does not have the problem the first place, obviously)

Heating and cooling needs are fairly inelastic temporally. Your house is going to get cold in winter and hot in summer. You'll need to consume energy for this which is largely during the evening when everyone returns from work as you have fewer and fewer single income families. The refrigerator runs through the day.

Sure you can set the dryer and dishwasher if you have one to run at a time when the power rates are lower but you can't really shift most loads. Not even electric cars because you'll use the car to go to work.

If something doesn't need heating or cooling, in the bigger scheme of energy consumption, it barely moves the needle.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#145

Post by yongjik »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #111
shawabawa3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windmill is a defacto synonym for wind turbines in most english speaking countries

In the same way irregardless is a synonym for regardless, yeah I guess so.

More like how a "bug" is a synonym for "error in a program", even though there's no actual bug stuck between vacuum tubes, not to mention there are no vacuum tubes any more, and they don't do computation like they did in the 50s any more, but I feel your pain.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#146

Post by gehsty »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #131
Analemma_ wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the parent meant that the alternating current creates an electric field which is then absorbed by the water, leading to energy loss. This happens to some extent to all AC transmission, but I don't know enough to say if seawater+AC is a particularly bad combination. It would make sense though, because it's more conductive. EDIT: brandmeyer's comment explains it well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1690…

Yes, that's precisely the thing I was referring to. Wasn't sure about the correct terminology (not an EE) so I didn't try to make the comment sciency-souding :).

I work installing these cables and never heard this discussed, maybe at the voltages / transmission subsea cables work at (220kV, 1000s of amps) makes this effect negligible?

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#147

Post by gascan »

boxcardavin wrote: post #136
dschuetz wrote: post #120

I'm sorry, stupid question, but exacly how much power do those big ones generate? 20 times more than what? This actually most crucial tidbit isn't even covered in that article, or am I blind?

The biggest ones produce over 5 megawatts at peak capacity, I think someone has built over 10 megawatts but I'm not sure. 5 megawatts is a pretty useless figure for most people to imagine, and I think imagining it in units of homes-powered isn't great either because we don't have a sense of the heat or kinetic energy equivalent because our homes are quiet machines. A 260 horsepower car (think new minivan) at full thr…

But perhaps the most useful might be power-plant-equivalents.

The Stockton Cogeneration Facility near San Fran had a nominal output of 60MW. Thus, around twelve of these mega-windmills would roughly equal the output of that coal plant.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#148

Post by cesarb »

gehsty wrote: post #119
TeMPOraL wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I recall reading that if you run undersea cables with AC, the sea water sucks out energy from them.

Can’t tell if trolling or not. The cables have water barriers so the conductors + insulation remain quite dry.

Salt water is a conductor. Two conductors separated by insulation make a capacitor. This extra capacitance makes AC less efficient.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#149

Post by TeMPOraL »

gehsty wrote: post #146
TeMPOraL wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's precisely the thing I was referring to. Wasn't sure about the correct terminology (not an EE) so I didn't try to make the comment sciency-souding :).

I work installing these cables and never heard this discussed, maybe at the voltages / transmission subsea cables work at (220kV, 1000s of amps) makes this effect negligible?

I honestly don't know. I'm not an EE, I only reported on what I've heard reported on the topic (and that passed my "basic physics sniff test").

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#150

Post by dschuetz »

boxcardavin wrote: post #136
dschuetz wrote: post #120

I'm sorry, stupid question, but exacly how much power do those big ones generate? 20 times more than what? This actually most crucial tidbit isn't even covered in that article, or am I blind?

The biggest ones produce over 5 megawatts at peak capacity, I think someone has built over 10 megawatts but I'm not sure. 5 megawatts is a pretty useless figure for most people to imagine, and I think imagining it in units of homes-powered isn't great either because we don't have a sense of the heat or kinetic energy equivalent because our homes are quiet machines. A 260 horsepower car (think new minivan) at full thr…

So, basically a single big offshore turbine 5-10MW can power a single electrical locomotive with power ranges 5000-10000 kW continuously. That's rather impressive considering how insanely powerful locomotives are.
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