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The case for hydrogen-powered cars

thedrive.com

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Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#71

Post by mikeash »

terryf wrote: post #70
mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

If people would be fully rational, then you would be correct. However, they are not (and shouldn't be imho, but that's another discussion). Basically, it's about the ability or potential of going anywhere. I bought a car that technically has the ability to go off-road. The reality is that I probably never will. But it sure feels good to know that I could . Paid extra for it and all. Completely irrational, but makes m…

I agree with this when discussing EVs that just can’t practically do long trips at all. Rationally, you save money by buying a cheaper short-range EV and renting a car for trips, but I wouldn’t actually do that.

It’s different when talking about a good long-range EV with a good charging network. Not only are long trips practical, but the speed penalty is pretty small.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#72

Post by Fins »

mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

That's true if you never need to run errands after coming home, visit friends who live an hour away and don't have a charger, etc. etc. Let alone people who actually make a living by driving around.

If you don't have your own charger or access to a free one, commercial chargers aren't necessarily cheaper than gas either. Last time I ran numbers for my wife's plug-in, apart from free chargers (Volta or some municipal ones) putting in gas was cheaper.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#73

Post by Fins »

mikeash wrote: post #67
chaostheory wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My time is precious. Long trips are for rentals if you have a full EV. As an alternative I drive a Chevy Volt which has a gas run battery charger. While the battery only has a 50 mile range, the gas powered battery charger has about a 250 mile range

My point is that the EV is a net time saver over a hydrogen or normal car, so if your time is precious then it’s a win. The Volt may be even better in that respect, of course.

Only if you can charge at home, have a nice predictable commute, and don't drive too much. That's a sizeable market by itself, but far from what works for everybody.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#74

Post by mikeash »

Fins wrote: post #73
mikeash wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the EV is a net time saver over a hydrogen or normal car, so if your time is precious then it’s a win. The Volt may be even better in that respect, of course.

Only if you can charge at home, have a nice predictable commute, and don't drive too much. That's a sizeable market by itself, but far from what works for everybody.

Charging at home, yes, but driving over 200 miles in a single day is super unusual. I see no need for a predictable commute or not driving "too much" unless it's extreme.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#75

Post by Fins »

mikeash wrote: post #74
Fins wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if you can charge at home, have a nice predictable commute, and don't drive too much. That's a sizeable market by itself, but far from what works for everybody.

Charging at home, yes, but driving over 200 miles in a single day is super unusual. I see no need for a predictable commute or not driving "too much" unless it's extreme.

Somebody living in Stockton and coming to clean SV's offices, or serve that nice catered food might be driving about that far. In saner areas of the US regular work commute is probably less, but there's a significant proportion of people who do not sit in the office writing code, but rather drive around doing things -- handymen, plumbers, cleaners, etc. etc.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#76

Post by dogweather »

ianai wrote: post #52
adrianmonk wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apartments will probably eventually offer electric charging. It's a small investment, and they can turn it into an additional revenue stream (which they love) and/or can advertise it as an amenity that sweetens the deal of leasing there. However, will they plenty of charging stations, so that you never have to worry about moving your car so someone else can charge? That seems doubtful. I suppose they could allow a mo…

I doubt they will if they have to pay for it. Apartment complexes, in my experience, hardly retrofit anything. The RE market is so messed up that complexes don’t have to do much of anything to increase their rent. What was there at time of build (be that the 1980s or 90s) is what you’re likely to get. What the US needs is a political desire for New Deal type programs. Work still sucks outside of 2-4 (?) metropolis ar…

Subjectively, charging stations are "everywhere" in apartment complexes here in Las Vegas.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#77

Post by mikeash »

Fins wrote: post #75
mikeash wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charging at home, yes, but driving over 200 miles in a single day is super unusual. I see no need for a predictable commute or not driving "too much" unless it's extreme.

Somebody living in Stockton and coming to clean SV's offices, or serve that nice catered food might be driving about that far. In saner areas of the US regular work commute is probably less, but there's a significant proportion of people who do not sit in the office writing code, but rather drive around doing things -- handymen, plumbers, cleaners, etc. etc.

I’m pretty sure most of those still fit into an EV’s range. There are some who won’t, but it’s a fairly small number.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#78

Post by mikeash »

Fins wrote: post #72
mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

That's true if you never need to run errands after coming home, visit friends who live an hour away and don't have a charger, etc. etc. Let alone people who actually make a living by driving around. If you don't have your own charger or access to a free one, commercial chargers aren't necessarily cheaper than gas either. Last time I ran numbers for my wife's plug-in, apart from free chargers (Volta or some municipal…

Just how far are you driving for errands?

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#79

Post by Yizahi »

Pulcinella wrote: post #46
mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed. Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

This. Until either home parking or office parking will offer any type of EV charging I'm not buying an EV car, it is not feasible now. I'm definitely not going to do this:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev...

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#80

Post by Fins »

mikeash wrote: post #77
Fins wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody living in Stockton and coming to clean SV's offices, or serve that nice catered food might be driving about that far. In saner areas of the US regular work commute is probably less, but there's a significant proportion of people who do not sit in the office writing code, but rather drive around doing things -- handymen, plumbers, cleaners, etc. etc.

I’m pretty sure most of those still fit into an EV’s range. There are some who won’t, but it’s a fairly small number.

Stockton to Sunnyvale is 80-100 mils one way. And I imagine working people who have to live in Stockton or Tracy because they can't afford living near work in SV probably aren't buying extended range Teslas. Most likely don't have any chargers at home either.
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