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Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

telegraph.co.uk

21–30 of 274 posts

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#21
post #2

The subjective is always where there is value. I wish there were surgeons that would accept these challenges and colleagues would objectively assign a degree of difficulty score. And a site that aggregated such scores. I really don’t care how “friendly” a doctor is - did the get the diagnosis right? Did they improve longevity? Did they improve quality of life? Not easy to score but what everyone wants to know.

Not sure why this is being downvoted. It’s a legitimate request. I worked for a novel medical device company and we had a lot of surgeons on staff. While not a product we’d ever build, there was always discussion amongst the doctors of how to better grade physicians and specifically surgeons. The concern is was that a lot, and I mean a LOT, of surgeons were bad at their job. They were always proposing different syste…

> ... and colleagues would objectively assign a degree of difficulty score.

He asks for a level of "objectivity" that you just can't get. What do you think medicine is? Like repairing toasters? "Why don't you simply assign some objective numbers" - it's so easy! No it is not, unless you only count a set of basic and routine procedures. Even things like a broken bone vary greatly - and then add the additional variance of the people having those broken bones.

You can sort of get some objectivity when you do statistics of lots and lots of patients in many places over long periods - but the problem OP wants is to be able to make statements about individuals (doctors). Being able to say something about a population is very different from saying something about an individual within the population. "Statistics" about a single doctor are and will be full of randomness.

Besides, if they did what I quoted from OPs statement above what would probably happen is that everybody declares everything as "very difficult" (or just below) expecting colleagues to do the same for them. In Germany private insurance has a multiplier on the amounts they can charge for something. Guess what: Everything is now declared as "very difficult" (with some short fuzzy explanation), multiplier 2.3. Almost nothing is charged at the "normal difficulty" rate.

> Did they improve longevity? Did they improve quality of life?

Given that each doctor is highly specialized, and that on the other hand your GP, the one who treats you long-term, can't actually do much when there is anything serious, those numbers are mostly out of the control of individual doctors. You would have to get such numbers system-wide, not per doctor. Medicine is supplied to patients throughout their life (incl. late life) by a network, not by an individual. There also is a huge impact of ones own life choices (e.g. obesity, smoking), and no, you can't just correct for them - not individually (for populations we can). All those numbers would look terrible for doctors who treat more of the worse cases. It would lead exactly to what the article is about.

I'm not arguing against trying to measure surgeon outcomes - I'm against trying to use those measures for things they are not good for.

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#22

On a related vein, do surgical procedures involve any type of quality control, where the work is independently audited? If so I wasn't aware. Quality control is such an important cogwheel of processes in many other industries, yet I don't hear much talk of it in relation to medical profession.

Yes, at least in the UK, we have a series of national clinical audit programmes.

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#23

Sports athletes do this. For example players won't attempt end of the quarter half court shots since that will lower their percentages, or QBs taking sacks to not lower their QB ratings. What they do in sports is keep advanced stats. Instead of just giving a pure mortality rating have mortality rating, by surgery type.

[deleted]

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#24

Sports athletes do this. For example players won't attempt end of the quarter half court shots since that will lower their percentages, or QBs taking sacks to not lower their QB ratings. What they do in sports is keep advanced stats. Instead of just giving a pure mortality rating have mortality rating, by surgery type.

Then they just dodge the hard cases of each specific type of surgery. It's probably still an improvement though on just avoiding a surgery type altogether.

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#25

On a related vein, do surgical procedures involve any type of quality control, where the work is independently audited? If so I wasn't aware. Quality control is such an important cogwheel of processes in many other industries, yet I don't hear much talk of it in relation to medical profession.

There are process checklist reviews (http://qualitysafety.bmj.com/content/23/4/299) and medical review panels (https://mrp.ky.gov/Pages/index.aspx).

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#26
post #13
post #2

The subjective is always where there is value. I wish there were surgeons that would accept these challenges and colleagues would objectively assign a degree of difficulty score. And a site that aggregated such scores. I really don’t care how “friendly” a doctor is - did the get the diagnosis right? Did they improve longevity? Did they improve quality of life? Not easy to score but what everyone wants to know.

Does the NHS provide enough free market choice that anybody could take advantage of a score even if they wanted to?

If you have private insurance, you can choose your own surgeon.

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#27
post #10

66% of 115 specialists polled did not refuse a difficult operation. 33% thought about how it would impact their statistics, or put more generously, thought hard about the probability of the patient surviving presumably quite serious surgery. Yes mortality is a blunt statistic for a surgeon, but perhaps giving people pause for thought about the odds of success is no bad thing. Contra point: would you rather not know h…

If their operations were peer reviewed for oversight purposes, assuming they can or would be willing to self-regulate without bias, so the results have confirmed qualitative meaning associated with them - then yes, I'd like to know their history, full history.

Re: Heart surgeons refuse difficult operations to avoid poor mortality ratings

#28
post #13
post #2

The subjective is always where there is value. I wish there were surgeons that would accept these challenges and colleagues would objectively assign a degree of difficulty score. And a site that aggregated such scores. I really don’t care how “friendly” a doctor is - did the get the diagnosis right? Did they improve longevity? Did they improve quality of life? Not easy to score but what everyone wants to know.

Does the NHS provide enough free market choice that anybody could take advantage of a score even if they wanted to?

You can choose where to get treatment and who treats you; the main issue is whether you get the timeline you'd prefer. Generally, patients will choose a clinical center (to the extent that some hospitals have stopped offering specific treatments, because their stats were never good enough - e.g you need to do a certain number of children's heart ops per year to be good enough to get good stats). If you have the option to go private, either through your insurance or the NHS, then obviously there's another layer of choice.

Most of the private surgeons are also NHS, anyway.

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