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The case for hydrogen-powered cars

thedrive.com

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Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#51

Post by imh »

mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

If the autonomous cab future all the companies seem to be hoping for happens, the typical day may change. Not sure what that means for the ideal refueling technology.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#52

Post by ianai »

adrianmonk wrote: post #49
Pulcinella wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed. Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

Apartments will probably eventually offer electric charging. It's a small investment, and they can turn it into an additional revenue stream (which they love) and/or can advertise it as an amenity that sweetens the deal of leasing there. However, will they plenty of charging stations, so that you never have to worry about moving your car so someone else can charge? That seems doubtful. I suppose they could allow a mo…

I doubt they will if they have to pay for it. Apartment complexes, in my experience, hardly retrofit anything. The RE market is so messed up that complexes don’t have to do much of anything to increase their rent. What was there at time of build (be that the 1980s or 90s) is what you’re likely to get.

What the US needs is a political desire for New Deal type programs. Work still sucks outside of 2-4 (?) metropolis areas. Probably a large infrastructure project could get charging stations to the masses at the apartment level, and not much else.

One exception though could be a vast surge in oil prices. We’re talking 7$/gallon.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#53

Post by tjoff »

adrianmonk wrote: post #49
Pulcinella wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed. Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

Apartments will probably eventually offer electric charging. It's a small investment, and they can turn it into an additional revenue stream (which they love) and/or can advertise it as an amenity that sweetens the deal of leasing there. However, will they plenty of charging stations, so that you never have to worry about moving your car so someone else can charge? That seems doubtful. I suppose they could allow a mo…

It is most certainly not a small investment. Especially considering how few it will benefit.

> I suppose they could allow a monthly lease of a reserved charging station, though.

That's usually how it's done here. And the cost is not negligible at all, more than what I pay in gas each month. And on top of that you pay for the electricity of course. And I'd say that most apartments that even have parking associated with them you will often need to wait years and years to even get a spot (electric or not).

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#54

Post by bluthru »

bunderbunder wrote: post #29
_ph_ wrote: post #22

Things not so often mentioned in the Hydrogen vs batteries discussions: - just fueling hydrogen vehicles requires an substantial amount of electricity for the compressors. An electric vehicle could drive at least 10% of the distance on this electricity alone. That is not counting the compression work at any the production site and when filling the trucks. - distributing hydrogen requires trucks. In most places, the e…

The charge rate on electric vehicles is very slow, though, unless you're using one of Tesla's superchargers (which aren't everywhere). I think that, when people are worrying about charge time, they're really asking, "Will charge times mean that a 5-hour trip to visit Mom and Dad now turns into a 10-hour trip, or, worse, something that requires an overnight stay?"

>superchargers (which aren't everywhere)

These are probably easier to deploy and maintain than hydrogen tanks, right?

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#55

Post by FrojoS »

stephengillie wrote: post #26
sharpercoder wrote: post #16

When discussing hydrogen cars, I particularly like the blog of Mux about this topic. Part 1: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11470/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 2: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11493/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 3: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11556/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 4: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11572/why-fuel-cell-ca...

The first part is a 60-minute read. Could you summarize the thesis of the first part or 2 into a few bullet points?

tldr: Hydrogen cars are worse than battery electric cars and always will be.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#56

Post by FrojoS »

sharpercoder wrote: post #16

When discussing hydrogen cars, I particularly like the blog of Mux about this topic. Part 1: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11470/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 2: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11493/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 3: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11556/why-fuel-cell-ca... Part 4: https://ssj3gohan.tweakblogs.net/blog/11572/why-fuel-cell-ca...

Very interesting!

> Besides the battery, the biggest component(s) by weight is/are the motor(s). Current generation electric cars use still fairly heavy central motors with an actual axle to the wheels. Upcoming generations will use in-wheel or near-wheel motors that have almost no drive train associated with them: no transmission, no gearing at all, no weight lost to things that aren't necessary. This is one of the reasons electric cars can actually become lighter than traditional gasoline-powered cars; the chassis can be reduced because there are almost no driving forces on it anymore. Note though: this is an advantage of both battery and fuel cell electric cars!

Motor on the wheel seems so obvious but still no one seems to build such a car. I’ve asked automotive engineers about this and the answer I get is often:

Wheel based motor would make the wheel heavier and thereby increase rotational inertia which decreases acceleration and increases the required (kinetic) energy for a given speed of the car. I also heard that the increased wheel weight reduces the performance of the suspension.

I suppose another problem is the need for two (4 for 4WD) gear boxes, since electric motors are low torque, high rpm. The author says „no gearing at all“ but how is this feasible with an electric motor?

Anyone in the knows can comment on this?

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#57

Post by newnewpdro »

Pulcinella wrote: post #46
mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed. Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

The rental market is a huge barrier to widespread adoption of plug-in electrics.

I don't see it changing without government/tax incentives for the owners, which won't be happening under republican leadership.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#58

Post by brightball »

mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

That's why I still maintain that the Volt is the best engineered option out there. You get the best of both worlds with the problems of neither.

I put gas in my car, probably once every 2-3 months without a work related trip...and that's with me driving about 70 miles a day give or take.

A hydrogen/electric version of the Volt instead of gas/electric would make a lot of sense IMO.

Re: The case for hydrogen-powered cars

#59

Post by LeoPanthera »

Pulcinella wrote: post #46
mikeash wrote: post #43

The one advantage of hydrogen cars, refueling speed, is not actually an advantage for typical driving habits. A hydrogen car takes about five minutes to refuel. On a typical day, a battery car takes about five seconds to refuel: you plug it in and you leave it overnight. Sure, the actual charging takes longer, but who cares? You’re not involved. On long trips, this reverses, but how often do you do those? Most people…

This only works if you live in a house or an apartment that has electric car outlets installed. Most apartments have no place to plug in your electric vehicle.

Worth pointing out that you can charge an EV from a standard power outlet, even American 120v sockets - this is how I charge my Leaf.

It takes longer, sure, but it's rare that my car will not be at 100% in the morning if I leave it overnight.

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