Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines • Hacker News Board

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#401

Post by uxp » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

scotch_drinker wrote: post #216

tinbad wrote: post #72

I had high hopes for Bank Simple some time ago when they came out. Then they got acquired by a bigger bank. This industry is nearly impossible to disrupt. Just like the Oil companies back in the day, these banks are so big and powerful that it's impossible to innovate in the current market conditions.

Big Oil was broken up by anti trust legislation. It's possible this comes back around. Currently reading a biography on Brandeis who was one of the titans of anti-trust in the 30s and 40s. I'm hoping that kind of regulation comes back around.

How? The CFPB wasn't perfect, but like the ACA, many think that if legislation is not perfect, it should not be enacted. That's the entire basis of the Hastert rule, if the majority party isn't able to "secure" a majority of votes, then bills shouldn't be voted on.

Isn't that the point of voting?!? Why are our representatives pre-voting on bills to determine if they should even be argued, debated, amended and tried? I'm reminded of something one of my senators said last year about the Russia investigation (specifically the election interference, not "collusion"), in context of them not wanting to investigate because the facts were not known. THATS THE FKING POINT OF AN INVESTIGATION YOU DIPSH*T, TO FIND FACTS.

Everyone needs to vote this november. I don't care if you vote Republican, Democrat or any of the 3rd parties. Just vote. Get the old guys out. Disrupt their legacy. We (software developers) hate the Waterfall method. We like being Agile, whatever that means. Make our government operate the same way. Iterate in small, meaningful chunks.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#402

Post by flyingcircus3 » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 4:09 PM UTC

avaika wrote: post #383

chiefalchemist wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will fines dissuade future dishonesty? Not likely. But jail time of the guilty decision makers would. Steal a candy bar? Go to jail. Knowingly ruin someone's life? No problem. The shareholders pay for it.

Why massively put people in jail for everything? In most countries jails are no good to prisoners. They are used to isolate people from society, not to help people to become a better person. And society is putting tones of money to support penitentiary system. I believe for economical crimes people who took the decision should be fined a lot and banned from taking positions where they can do the same things again. No…

Well, the bankers have always had their own threat of isolation as a hole card. If you don't like my money, I know a nice place in the Alps where they are isolationists to a fault, Switzerland.

Not that I agree with the idea, but it seems to work in practice.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#403

Post by flyingcircus3 » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #390

avaika wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why massively put people in jail for everything? In most countries jails are no good to prisoners. They are used to isolate people from society, not to help people to become a better person. And society is putting tones of money to support penitentiary system. I believe for economical crimes people who took the decision should be fined a lot and banned from taking positions where they can do the same things again. No…

>The same for other crimes where people do not hurt or threaten to hurt other people. Isn't that the thing though? Don't these bankers actually hurt more people, and hurt them worse, than any violent criminal could? So the person who hurts one family gets jail but the one that hurts thousands "doesn't get to work in the industry" anymore? That sounds like hogwash to me. Has everyone just forgotten about the principle…

No, we've just gotten really good at interpreting our contract from the late 1700s really well.

The Lucas critique, or Campbell's law, both refer to the same concept. Any metric that becomes a target is no longer a sufficient metric.

The Constitution has been our metric for 250 years. I don't have a superior alternative, but it occurs to me that we've demanded it be a literal document, but when its our own skin on the line, we suddenly forget the inconvenient parts, and contort our minds to find absolution for something we are going to do anyways.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#404

Post by ergothus » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #392

chiefalchemist wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will fines dissuade future dishonesty? Not likely. But jail time of the guilty decision makers would. Steal a candy bar? Go to jail. Knowingly ruin someone's life? No problem. The shareholders pay for it.

That will never happen because the lawmakers (i.e. wealthy elite, not democratically elected representatives) will never write laws to punish themselves. As long we live in a plutocracy we have zero hope of personal accountability for these sort of criminals. They will however pass brutal laws sentencing poor people to 35 years to life for possession, an other disgusting shit like that, but that's another story.

For clarity: you saying the source of the laws are wealthy "elites" that aren't in office? Meaning sone lobbyists and their patrons? Otherwise I'm confused as one can both be a selfish rich person AND a (american-style or noy) democratically elected official.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#405

Post by ergothus » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

avaika wrote: post #383

chiefalchemist wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will fines dissuade future dishonesty? Not likely. But jail time of the guilty decision makers would. Steal a candy bar? Go to jail. Knowingly ruin someone's life? No problem. The shareholders pay for it.

Why massively put people in jail for everything? In most countries jails are no good to prisoners. They are used to isolate people from society, not to help people to become a better person. And society is putting tones of money to support penitentiary system. I believe for economical crimes people who took the decision should be fined a lot and banned from taking positions where they can do the same things again. No…

While I agree prisons are overused, making it a purely economical matter means it's just another investment. Benefit if you get away with it vs risk of getting caught. You have to be pretty draconian to make no one take that risk.

Banning people from an activity is also hard. They can just take a position where they advise others who will make such decisions, or other loopholes.

Jail time may not be the answer, and we clearly do a bad job of making these acts a financial risk (not to mention preventing recurrence), so your suggestion is undoubtedly an improvement over current day, but I don't think we can stop there. (Not that I have better ideas yet)

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#406

Post by aquadrop » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

crististm wrote: post #242

ddingus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but there are two issues here. One is getting your trouble resolved. Sadly that means doing some work you shouldn't have to at present. The other is sharing all those experiences so that we can garner momentum to change things.

There is a theory that you should fix your own problems before you fix other's.

You can do it concurrently.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#407

Post by Bricejm » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

A fine isn't going to hurt Wells, especially when it's about two weeks worth of profit. If you want to teach a bank a lesson, you have to hit their business model. If after a fraud is uncovered regulators instituted restrictions to account openings instead of fines, you would see change. For example, if Wells wasn't allowed to open a new account - of any kind - for six months they would start to lose customers - and bankers - to institutions without restrictions. That would change the industry.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#408

Post by perseusprime11 » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

johnwheeler wrote: post #39

kaizendad wrote: post #19

OK, but Wells Fargo made $5 billion last year, and the activity they were fined for took place over many years, which leaves me to ask: after the fines, was this activity profitable or not? If it was profitable, do the fines actually dissuade future dishonesty? Also, apparently Wells Fargo thinks that 27,000 people lost their cars over this. I bet none of those people will be made whole. Cars are really essential thi…

No, they made 22 billion. You're probably reading their quarterly figures. source: https://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/wfc/financials?query=income-st... The scams in themselves were not profitable. For the cross-selling, they made an extra 100 million or so over the course of many years, I don't recall the figures I read.

This billion dollar fine is like a small change for them. Warren Buffet has a lot of exposure to this company and he has been influencing to let them go for a long time. Go figure!

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#409

Post by Skunkleton » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #96

Skunkleton wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Semi-related: If you have any entities (power company, cell phone provider, etc..) setup to directly pull their payments from your account, these can cause the account to re-open, and then overdraft. Be careful.

That sounds very unethical.

Its how banks work I guess? I think the agreement that you enter when you allow direct EFT states something to that effect. It's a crock of shit.

Re: Wells Fargo Hit with $1B in Fines

#410

Post by andrepd » Sat, Apr 21, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

ergothus wrote: post #404

andrepd wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen because the lawmakers (i.e. wealthy elite, not democratically elected representatives) will never write laws to punish themselves. As long we live in a plutocracy we have zero hope of personal accountability for these sort of criminals. They will however pass brutal laws sentencing poor people to 35 years to life for possession, an other disgusting shit like that, but that's another story.

For clarity: you saying the source of the laws are wealthy "elites" that aren't in office? Meaning sone lobbyists and their patrons? Otherwise I'm confused as one can both be a selfish rich person AND a (american-style or noy) democratically elected official.

Ask any American this question:

"Knowing that some people are responsible for _knowingly_ enriching themselves off of messing with the global economy leading to the global economic crisis of 2009 and, for example, hundreds of thousands to millions of excess deaths, would you support: (A) jail time and criminal accountability for all involved; or (B) a $700,000,000,000 bailout for, among other things, their next yacht fund?

If the majority answer is (A) then there's your evidence we live in a plutocracy.