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The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

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Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#221

Post by lovich »

hshehehjdjdjd wrote: post #218
lovich wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its beyond even being a legal fiction in many situations. There is no option for most people when it comes to certain terms and conditions. Take phones for instance. You cannot live in modern society without a phone. You will not be able to get a phone, without agreeing to one of these long terms and conditions. They come from landline providers, they come from cell phone providers, they come packaged in the box in t…

For practical purposes, you can’t secure a dwelling without signing a long, complicated contract (be it a lease or a mortgage note). Yet dwelling is a necessity, even more so than a phone. And, in these contracts, so much more is on the line. According to your argument, you should not have to be bound by the terms of these agreements. You may indeed believe that, but I hope you can see how much of our society is base…

I know, we can't just throw out the concept of a contract with our current society and I don't think there would be a benefit in doing so. However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. Terms of service seem to surprise the majority of individuals who agree to them, and as the poster above said, the idea that anyone agreeing to them understands what they agreed to is a fiction.

Why terms of service are having a different outcome is something that should be figured out and mitigated. We shouldn't just keep charging forward on something where the outcome is bad for the vast majority of individuals in society, just because we've always done it that way

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#222

Post by [deleted] »

grellas wrote: post #189

The basic law relating to online terms and conditions has been stable for some years now and should remain so. It certainly is not headed for a "reckoning." When private parties transact business in a free society, the law of contracts steps in to provide rules enabling them to do so in a well-defined and orderly manner. Contract law has some fundamental principles that anchor it and, beyond those, has a vast number…

[deleted]

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#223

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

grellas wrote: post #189

The basic law relating to online terms and conditions has been stable for some years now and should remain so. It certainly is not headed for a "reckoning." When private parties transact business in a free society, the law of contracts steps in to provide rules enabling them to do so in a well-defined and orderly manner. Contract law has some fundamental principles that anchor it and, beyond those, has a vast number…

We could tell you were a lawyer by the length and obtuseness of your comment alone.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#224

Post by hshehehjdjdjd »

lovich wrote: post #221
hshehehjdjdjd wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For practical purposes, you can’t secure a dwelling without signing a long, complicated contract (be it a lease or a mortgage note). Yet dwelling is a necessity, even more so than a phone. And, in these contracts, so much more is on the line. According to your argument, you should not have to be bound by the terms of these agreements. You may indeed believe that, but I hope you can see how much of our society is base…

I know, we can't just throw out the concept of a contract with our current society and I don't think there would be a benefit in doing so. However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. Terms of service seem to surprise the majority of individuals who agree to them, and as the poster above said, the idea that anyone agreeing to them understands what they agreed to is a fiction. Wh…

> However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers.

I really don’t agree with this. Are you aware of the existence of adjustable rate mortgages?

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#225

Post by hshehehjdjdjd »

hhfcvh wrote: post #220
hshehehjdjdjd wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For practical purposes, you can’t secure a dwelling without signing a long, complicated contract (be it a lease or a mortgage note). Yet dwelling is a necessity, even more so than a phone. And, in these contracts, so much more is on the line. According to your argument, you should not have to be bound by the terms of these agreements. You may indeed believe that, but I hope you can see how much of our society is base…

My mortgage is easier to understand than any of my software licences. Just sayin’

I read my mortgage note cover to cover, and also the Facebook T&C front to back. They both seem pretty easy to understand to me, tbh. The standard CA home purchase contract is the scariest of the three, because there are so many options that can cause huge swings in value and liability.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#226

Post by textmode »

grellas wrote: post #189

The basic law relating to online terms and conditions has been stable for some years now and should remain so. It certainly is not headed for a "reckoning." When private parties transact business in a free society, the law of contracts steps in to provide rules enabling them to do so in a well-defined and orderly manner. Contract law has some fundamental principles that anchor it and, beyond those, has a vast number…

The question is whether all the data that is collected from online consumers is actually required in order to fulfill the ever-growing number of online transactions. What data is needed to purchase a product or subscribe to a paid service? Perhaps name, billing address, payment details, etc. Any data collected above and beyond that minimum may be rightfully questioned and might reasonably be considered "optional".

Facebook's data policy has now increased from something like 2700 words to 4200 words.[1] Putting aside the question of whether this makes it more or less digestible by users, some are saying the new policy may make more clear what data Facebook is collecting. However the question remains: Why are they collecting it? This is perhaps the fundamental question and one that underlies the GDPR. With respect to each item of user data: Is it neccessary to collect it in order to provide the product or service.

Is there a minimum amount of data that must be collected? Is the amount of user data that Facebook is collecting above that minimum?

Facebook is clearly a business. It is selling a service. There are paying customers. However there is a question whether users are actually the "customers". Is the relationship between Facebook and users a commercial one?

How does one quantify the "price" that users pay. What are the users affirmative obligations under the agreement? What is the user's end of the bargain. An agreement to allow herself to be studied?

What is Facebook's end of the bargain? Does it have any affirmative obligations regarding service? What happens if Facebook fails to perform their end of the bargain? How is the value of the service quantified?

Does this arrangement at times seem tantamount to users agreeing to take part in an elaborate, ongoing "marketing survey", where their behaviour online will be recorded, observed and analysed? Does this make the user agreement different from a traditional commercial transaction?

Is the relationship between Facebook and advertisers more like a traditional commercial transaction? What data does Facebook collect about its customers, advertisers? Is it only the minimum needed to provide the service?

Is joining Facebook the modern equivalent of taking part in Nielson ratings, agreeing to have a monitoring device attached to ones television recording ones viewing habits.

1. https://gizmodo.com/weekend-long-reads-facebooks-new-data-po...

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#227

Post by hshehehjdjdjd »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #223
grellas wrote: post #189

The basic law relating to online terms and conditions has been stable for some years now and should remain so. It certainly is not headed for a "reckoning." When private parties transact business in a free society, the law of contracts steps in to provide rules enabling them to do so in a well-defined and orderly manner. Contract law has some fundamental principles that anchor it and, beyond those, has a vast number…

We could tell you were a lawyer by the length and obtuseness of your comment alone.

That is a very rude thing to say.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#228

Post by downandout »

rabboRubble wrote: post #205
downandout wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Access to Facebook, Spotify, or Netflix is not a human right. These are private services offered by private companies who are free to offer those services on any terms they choose. It’s fine and completely understandable that you may not have time or cannot understand the agreements under which they may choose to offer you access. Your remedy for that is to not use the services in question. Your remedy isn’t to lie t…

Adhesion contracts are not limited to social media and entertainment sites, and I suspect you are picking those sites to belittle based on the frivolity those sites' categories. Adhesion contracts appear in banking, medical, and insurance contracts and yes, when you sign up for Facebook or Netflix. Yes, you can choose different services. Please identify a banking, credit card, brokerage, doctor, and insurer that does…

The point is that they don't have to have short contracts. If you choose to use their services, then you should review the agreements, or at least not complain when they exercise their rights under those agreements that you falsely claimed to read.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#229

Post by fourthark »

hshehehjdjdjd wrote: post #224
lovich wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, we can't just throw out the concept of a contract with our current society and I don't think there would be a benefit in doing so. However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. Terms of service seem to surprise the majority of individuals who agree to them, and as the poster above said, the idea that anyone agreeing to them understands what they agreed to is a fiction. Wh…

> However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. I really don’t agree with this. Are you aware of the existence of adjustable rate mortgages?

Not the OP, but yes I do, and I'd argue that is one of the parameters that most people learn about when they get a mortgage.

The trouble is, with an online service or a phone, we don't even know what the parameters are.

Re: The ‘Terms and Conditions’ Reckoning Is Coming

#230

Post by lovich »

hshehehjdjdjd wrote: post #224
lovich wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, we can't just throw out the concept of a contract with our current society and I don't think there would be a benefit in doing so. However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. Terms of service seem to surprise the majority of individuals who agree to them, and as the poster above said, the idea that anyone agreeing to them understands what they agreed to is a fiction. Wh…

> However mortgages are something that rarely have side effects surprise the signers. I really don’t agree with this. Are you aware of the existence of adjustable rate mortgages?

Yes, I have several adjustable rate loans, and they do still surprised people, they just aren't on the level of surprise of nobody even reading it because it's too long and complicated to understand
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