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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#721
post #580

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of. The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention…

> If you expect to take more than 2 - 3 hours of someone's time, you should be paying them. Do you want to work with team mates who have been vetted over less than 2 hours? I've worked with people who couldn't code, it's not a fun experience. There are a lot of people who can talk a good talk but can't actually code. This was the reason for the FizzBuzz test (which I dislike, but it was invented to solve a real probl…

I don't think the parent sees a problem with an 8 hours challenge in general.

The problem seems to be with unpaid 8-hour challenge.

Recruiting is not a cost-free process to begin with, and perhaps this is not the right place to cut these costs.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scenario: you have two offers on hand. One offer is for a full time position. The other is for "let's see how the next one to two months goes and then we'll decide if you still have a job or not." Which do you pick? All things being equal, the first offer carries significantly less risk as an employee and is clearly the better choice. If you're an employer who really wants to hire engineers, why would you give an off…

If I had the choice between a full time position with 3 days free coding prior, or "let's see how the next 1-2 months go" with no free prior coding, I'd chose the latter.

Those options both suck; I'd turn them both down. There are plenty of other places to work that will treat you like a professional.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#723
post #676
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I spent two days implementing a typeahead search results system for Etsy, including writing my own ingestion pipeline, map-reduce framework, index builder, and request processor." Seriously? You did all of that? For a take-home interview problem?? Oy. This is why companies get away with this crap... I'm going to say something harsh, but you really need to hear it: you failed at your number one responsibilty. It does…

Your speech is very impassioned, but you did nothing to defend your point of view, just reiterate it multiple times. Why is an employer asking for "proof of capabilities" tantamount to abuse? Seems a little hyperbolic, yeah?

Why do you think it takes two days of work to give "proof of capabilities"?

If you think "don't work for free" requires some sort of logical/evidentiary defense, I'm not sure how to help you.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#724
Here’s how we did interviews at the startup I used to work for.

Phase 1: 30min non-technical phone screen. Usually we would have three people on our side of the call, but only one of us would do most of the talking. The goals were simply to describe the company and role to the candidate, gauge the candidate’s interest and ability to communicate, and allow the candidate to ask basic questions. We would discuss and decide whether to advance the candidate immediately afterward and usually notify the candidate on the same day.

Phase 2: in-person code review, typically 1hr. We’d give the candidate the option of providing us with a (working) code sample from something the candidate had written previously, or of coding up a solution to a problem faced by our actual product. While I was there we had a good mix of candidates picking each option. The “homework” problems were always drawn from the product, so they were real, but we also kept them small, so that an average candidate could have a working solution in an hour or two. And we’d give the candidate a week with no other constraints. Candidates could use any language, could research solutions however they liked, and could email us any clarifying questions they had. Whichever option the candidate picked, the goal was just to get our eyes on a dozen sample the candidate had written and could be expected to understand. At the on-site, we’d have the candidate explain the problem in the candidate’s own words, then walk us through the solution. The goals were to determine how well the candidate understood the problem and how comfortable the candidate was with explaining technical decisions. It didn't matter to us if the code ran or even attempted an optimal solution; we advanced some candidates whose code samples did neither, but who were able to talk us through what they had tried to do and explain why it didn't work.

Phase 3: working interview. We hired candidates for a day, paying $1,200–$1,600 for the day, depending on the role. The candidate would pair with a member of the team and work on some aspect of the product. The task was selected to be representative of the work the role required, but also simple enough that could be completed in a single day. At the end of the interview, the candidate got to ship the code to production (for which purpose we had a big, important-looking, physical red button). The goals were to determine how well the candidate functions in a working environment, how readily the candidate asks for help or conducts research, how the candidate responds to frustration, and how interesting and engaging the candidate finds the work.

It was quite a time consuming process on our end, but it was extremely effective at finding excellent candidates. We never made a bad hire the whole time I was there.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amused at the idea that because I pass on senior devs who literally can't do FizzBuzz, that I must have a terrible interview process.

FWIW my FizzBuzz solution involves no 'for' loops, and in fact involves no control-flow keywords at all.

Haha, I'd love to see it if that's true. I love cool approaches to computation. FWIW as long as you can back it up with knowledge of what the relevant tradeoffs are (and don't scoff at a more KISS attitude for doing actual work), you're pretty much guaranteed to get a thumbs up from me if you give an answer off the beaten path.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#726
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

Soo...when a mission critical system at your team goes down, you get the newly hired guy with no previous knowledge of your code, put him in front of a dev environment he doesn't know and keep pestering him over the shoulder while he tries to get the system back up?

Sounds like a great place to work...

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#727
post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia Here's the thing tho': my CV is honest and my track record is pretty good: some small companies and some name-brand, well respected in their industries, known for probing interviews, over about 20 years. There may be some bad actors in the global candidate pool. But serious…

Spot on. It's rude to ask very basic questions to anyone with seniority. Just skip them and ask interesting and difficult ones. If a company cannot be flexible and reasonable enough to skip basic questions it's a bit of a red flag.

It's a bit rude but until senior-level-role-interviewing candidates can stop falling over on the basic questions why waste time with harder ones? The "candidate with an MS degree in CS and x years at SomeCo, can't do FizzBuzz" isn't a myth, it really happens to people giving interviews.

I've been having to give some interviews lately (though unfortunately they have to be within 'process') and my basic question is to write some code (with a computer) that outputs the endpoints of a line segment which bisects a plane between two input control points. (I give all the equations needed and the code is done within an application already set up.) It's still managed to trip up some people with experience who seemingly don't have the concept of representing a line mathematically (BS or MS in Physics, how?). We also tested it on intern candidates under shorter time constraints and a couple internal people, they did much better, I think all but one actually got the basic line done within half an hour even if edge cases remained. If we're given longer time constraints the problem and application framework scales to more interesting subjects like generating n-point voronoi diagrams and their applications, but we haven't gotten there with anyone yet...

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#728
post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

The reason the take-home assignment is unfair isn't because of a lack of objectivity. The unfairness is that it allows employers to make candidates spend proportionally more of the time, money, and effort required to generate signal from noise. Companies that are that aggressive at cost-cutting at your expense are also likely to have other strategies - say, giving the coding assignment to almost anyone and dropping the top 95% by salary requirement.

The short of it is that it's a candidate-unfriendly measure, and in my experience has been correlated with having other red flags.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#729
I just got one of these for a mobile position. "Please complete this coding interview. It should take about 3 hours." Me: "I've been writing mobile apps since the app store launched in 2008. Can we skip this step?" Corp: "Sorry, good luck on your search!"

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#730

I just got one of these for a mobile position. "Please complete this coding interview. It should take about 3 hours." Me: "I've been writing mobile apps since the app store launched in 2008. Can we skip this step?" Corp: "Sorry, good luck on your search!"

> I've been writing mobile apps since the app store launched in 2008

That's your main mistake, admitting that. I'm sure they were looking for someone with five more years of experience than that.

You should have been writing apps in a text editor waiting for the app store to come into existence, you know. I'm sure they picked someone with at least that much experience.

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