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Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

bloomberg.com

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Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#251

Post by ng12 »

dangerlibrary wrote: post #151
refurb wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medicare fraud goes well beyond price reporting by manufacturers. Physicians can bill for more expensive procedures, bill phantom patients, etc. That's a huge part of the multi billion dollar fraud that Medicare has. I assume being able to identify physicians will outlier billing patterns would be helpful in figuring out where to look closer.

I mean, if you want to get into it, you're both right and wrong. The second largest cases are typically against hospital chains that encourage (read: basically force) their coding teams to use particular billing codes. It's easy enough to model this from claims data (and we did). When a chain buys a new hospital, suddenly patients that present with the same diagnosis codes are all getting extensive exams that ostensi…

Do you know the details of Palantir's investigation? How do you know they're not doing exactly what you just described? Palantir is just a data analysis company, they're not the NSA.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#252

Post by [deleted] »

jessaustin wrote: post #232
pm90 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really? I think what he's trying to say is that we should have tools powerful enough to let the Government find/track people efficiently and correctly as long as there is a lawful reason for doing so . Its similar to the weak crypto arguments where Govt. agencies argue they should be able to break crypto protocols via a backdoor when there is a lawful reason to do so. That being said: the PATRIOT act and NSA's…

Perhaps what he's trying to say is, "I like money and power." "The logic" in this case is a proposition about how beings behave. That is, "We can build the largest prison system in history, give law enforcement unlimited surveillance powers and not expect massive injustices." That is simply wrong. Human beings are not like that.

[deleted]

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#253

Post by otakucode »

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #238
otakucode wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I send a FOIA request to [insert law enforcement agency here] and ask them to provide me with the source code and data used to classify me as a criminal so that I can determine whether the chain of reasoning holds up, and the law enforcement agency then needs to turn to Palantir to request that source code and data, what response will they get?

I think there are a couple of misconceptions about FOIAs, our software and the law in general here... - FOIAs cannot be used to obtain specific information about persons, this kind of information is protected. In the EU under the GDPR however, you can get some of this information (about yourself only) -- but I think law enforcement agencies are probably exempt from this (not sure, but would make sense.) - Our softwar…

There have been court cases already wherein, for example, a person was stopped for a DUI and subjected to a breathalyzer test. The defense lawyer in that case requested access to the source code of the firmware running on the breathalyzer device in order to determine if it was even a reliable source of accusatory evidence-gathering. It is under that sort of situation I imagine a law enforcement body being led to turn to Palantir to request full source code of the Palantir system, description of its algorithms, data it uses, etc. In the breathalyzer case, the source code was actually turned over and they discovered it to be of deplorable quality, with many features such as in the case of any internal failure, returning an illegally-drunk answer without otherwise indicating any fault.

In another similar case, someone issued a citation for speeding by an automated camera system requested the source code for the firmware running on that system. The court greed this was a reasonable request, and they issued a court order demanding the police department turn it over. The police went to the company they got the device from and found that they had no right to request the source. They had no right to know how the system they'd purchased and were using to charge people with infractions even operated. I expect this would be what would happen with Palantir.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#254

Post by anigbrowl »

Sort of off-topic, but I have a need for a graph/relationship oriented database like this (on a relatively tiny scale) and am having a hard time choosing between the many alternatives. Open source is a must, but otherwise I'm primarily interested in ease of use and visualization compatibility - I want to focus on my problem domain, rather than writing a lot of code or hacking for its own sake. Right now looking at Neo4j and GraphDB, would welcome other suggestions.

Thanks in advance!

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#255

Post by ianai »

vorpalhex wrote: post #189
ianai wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or worse, at some point that information is available to people who actively want to hurt or stalk you. Every bad divorce leaves at least one person with an axe to grind. It’s only a matter of time before collected information gets to adversary hands. As someone who recently left a very abusive, toxic workplace, I see this as a reality.

I'm going to have to dredge it back up, but I was just reading a rather alarming tale from a medical assistant. She had a child come into her practice, saw obvious signs of abuse, and filed a supposedly anonymous report - as she's legally mandated to do. The abuser of the child, a parent, apparently harassed the agency that received and forwarded the report until they gave up that "a medical practitioner had filed th…

And really only adversaries will be willing to go through that trouble.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#256

Post by fourthark »

ng12 wrote: post #244
avs733 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is unreasonable within what I said to differentiate the industry that supports data collection and archiving as a broad process (e.g., those you describe) with those that seek and intent specifically to collect and operationalize data about people without fully informed consent.

Palantir does not do data collection in that sense. They're much closer to IBM than you realize.

Especially if you consider IBM's systems for tracking the Holocaust and Apartheid. Special purpose people-tracking systems.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#257

Post by specialist »

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #192
specialist wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for participating here. "Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement ... is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy." Trust is built on transparency, accountability, responsibility. Can I make FOIA requests to Palantir?

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time. In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide…

How do I determine everything Palantir knows about me, and all the ways they've used and shared that data?

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#258

Post by mtnGoat »

specialist wrote: post #257
RedTennisRacket wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time. In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide…

How do I determine everything Palantir knows about me, and all the ways they've used and shared that data?

i too would like to know the answer to this question? is it being selectively ignored?

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#259

Post by mtnGoat »

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #215
mcguire wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may have causality reversed. Without Palantir, law enforcement would not only have no use for the data, it probably wouldn't be able to even collect it in a meaningful sense, in terms of technical and financial resources. Palantir goes to the agency and says, "Give us data and we'll give you "actionable intelligence". You know, back in the 90s and early 2000s, the term "data mining" was perjorative. Finan…

This is not in the least accurate... 1) yes, the LE do already have the data. 2) agencies don't 'give' data to palantir, law enforcement data almost always lives in air-gapped environments it cannot leave in any way (or only in highly restricted ways) 3) we don't 'give' actionable intelligence, we just provide tools for analysts to generate such data. Palantir is a company of software engineers, not of intelligence a…

you seem to be quite defensive of your choice to work for a company that builds spy software and sells it to anyone with the money to buy it. are you trying to convince us your employer is good, or yourself? its most certainly an ethical grey area, but you try hard to make it seem benignly white. these engineers know what the software is being used for, they can act innocent all they want, but what happens when this tool is used for bad? can you guarantee that it wont be? seems like your teams are turning a blind eye in exchange for large paychecks and doing some fine mental gymnastics to justify it all.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#260

Post by fishcakes »

specialist wrote: post #257
RedTennisRacket wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time. In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide…

How do I determine everything Palantir knows about me, and all the ways they've used and shared that data?

That is like asking everything Oracle or Postgresql knows about you. It doesn't make sense.

Palantir is software deployed for specific customers. The customers then use Palantir against their data and publicly available data.

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