The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#601

Post by lazyasciiart » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

irq11 wrote: post #428

Arzh wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the other option is to do a small take home test. Are you ok with that?

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-hom…

Every accountant attending an interview can produce a certificate from an accredited national group saying that they have taken an in-person, proctored exam on double-entry accounting, which is the 'credentials check' you refer to. There's nothing like it for programmers.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#602

Post by monocasa » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

sampleinajar wrote: post #590

monocasa wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amused at the idea that because I pass on senior devs who literally can't do FizzBuzz, that I must have a terrible interview process.

Sure. But, of course there is a difference between having a conversation about the overall trends of a practice versus a small subset of personal experiences. It's also important to define what you mean by "can't do FizzBuzz". Like they can't even do a basic loop or they don't get it perfect, in the exact way you think it should be? Because those are very different as well. I think it's fair to say that if you get a…

> It's also important to define what you mean by "can't do FizzBuzz". Like they can't even do a basic loop or they don't get it perfect, in the exact way you think it should be?

Like literally can't do a basic loop. I'm not looking for 'my solution', I'm looking for any solution.

> I think it's fair to say that if you get a senior Dev in that can't even write out an if-else statement checking for 3 and 5 you have a problem.

And yet, I can tell you from experience that there's someone out there who (at least was on the team that) wrote firmware for the space shuttle that literally can't if-else with modulus despite having a great looking resume. And they are far from alone.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#603

Post by Arzh » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

anthuswilliams wrote: post #495

irq11 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other option is to check references, do credential checks, and simple bullshit screens during interviews, like every other professional interview. Literally every other profession has this challenge! Programmers are unique only in their seeming inability to realize that they are not unique. Accountants are not asked to solve double-entry accounting whiteboard problems. Finance professionals are not given take-hom…

This is not to take away from your point, since I agree with you, but both accountants and finance professionals have stringent licensing requirements which (in theory) could provide a baseline expectation of competence.

That is the reason they get away with not testing them, because they have a universal test they can look to. Software jobs are pretty fluid, so unless we have a massive standard test that cover anything from embedded c to FE with react, it seems that kind of test is out of reach for software people.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#604

Post by s2g » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

neurobashing wrote: post #295

teachrdan wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those…

> Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan".

It's entirely reasonable for a carpenter not to want a job where they just nail pieces of wood together. Not really building anything, not really using skill. Just nailing a few boards together all day.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#605

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #437

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at other fields for examples. Few have to interview like devs do. Other professionals may have continuing education like conferences, but that's not the same. Imagine nurses or docs getting asked to take vitals for an interview.

Many fields not only have extensive education requirements, like law school for example, but May have mandatory internships at low wages for several years. This kind of comment is exactly the kind of thing that makes some people think that software developers have no idea just how good they have it.

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#606

Post by eeZah7Ux » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #456

stupidcar wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia. Literally, most candidates we see cannot code, even when they supposed have a decade or more of industry experience. If the industry wasn't so full of lying incompetents, it wouldn't be an issue.

The hiring process is a response to the fact that employers cannot trust a single word candidates say about their experience. This isn't paranoia Here's the thing tho': my CV is honest and my track record is pretty good: some small companies and some name-brand, well respected in their industries, known for probing interviews, over about 20 years. There may be some bad actors in the global candidate pool. But serious…

Spot on. It's rude to ask very basic questions to anyone with seniority.

Just skip them and ask interesting and difficult ones.

If a company cannot be flexible and reasonable enough to skip basic questions it's a bit of a red flag.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#607

Post by BjoernKW » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

lowbloodsugar wrote: post #479

Franciscouzo wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then people that aren't part of that network of trust (like minorities or women) can't get work.

And likewise, we get cliques of bullshit artists. Literally this guy just proposed "It's not what you know, its who you know" as the solution.

No, he didn’t. I said ‘network of trust’, not ‘cronyism’.

- People starring your GitHub repository.

- Someone following you on Twitter.

- Someone linking to a blog post you wrote.

- Someone recommending you to someone else because you did a great job on a project.

These are all examples of informal networks of trust.

I fail to see how that’s a bad thing.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#608

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:11 PM UTC

poulsbohemian wrote: post #393

monocasa wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

What you experienced is called hazing. Illegal in many contexts but for some reason it still thrives in tech land.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#609

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

gelo wrote: post #370

I went for a job interview with a company years ago just after I graduated. This was for a graduate position so I kinda made a few assumptive expectations on what they would want from me and my skills. Went in there, did their pointless psychometric tests (which by the way litterally have no relevance to my skills) went through their interview and went out their door passing it with flying colours. I got a call from…

Performing well at a job takes a lot more than just technical skills.

Social skills and having a compatible personality with others on the team is very important to team success too.

May have been something else but you saying "did their pointless psychometric tests (which by the way litterally have no relevance to my skills)" makes me suspect you failed for non-technical reasons.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#610

Post by cableshaft » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #537

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. Working for nothing __is__ obnoxious. Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Perhaps licensing a programmer / developer / engineer would be over doing it. (Read: Yes, it would be. But the examples do help.) That said, can't there be…

And yet you see plenty of people that don't give any weight to certifications, and clearly just about no one sees a degree as any sort of indicator, beyond a simple line item that must exist for HR to pass the resume along.

That's 4+ years of study right there, that we did to prove that we could do the job, but no, fuck that, some of those people freeze up during an interview and a handful of those people we brought couldn't demonstrate their programming skill, so we decided we can't trust that for ANYONE.

Sorry, go invent some new way to certify yourself. How about 2-4 years of intense study and a new test, like a bar exam that lawyers take! Or just get your PhD! Just study for half your life, go waaaaay into debt, and take the exact same salaries we are offering now, because we don't reeeaaaaally want to pay you as much as we're paying now, so we're sure as hell not going to offer to pay more for that extra effort.

If you thought a day long test was too annoying, then your only alternative is spend even more time and get something we're just going to ignore again the instant we make a bad hire with someone with that license!

(For the record, if I could take a single certification test and skip all this interview bullshit for the rest of my career, I would have done that years ago. I hate going through the technical interview gauntlet, and I'm one of the good programmers, at least once I'm on the job).