The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#571

Post by admax88q » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

the-pigeon wrote: post #555

psyc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

> If you can't handle the stress of me watching over your shoulder while you code then you can't handle the stress of getting a critical bug fixed immediately.

Those are two very different kinds of stress.

In one situation you're stressed because you feel like your every action and step is being judged. Every moment you spend floundering you feel is being docked against you, you can't help but worry about how the person breathing down your neck is expecting you to approach the problem.

In the other situation you are a part of a team, you have each others backs and trust each other to make sound judgement calls. You're working together for a common goal rather than judging each others every movement.

Your hiring method sounds like hazing, you're putting interviewees though unnecessary stress to see if they crack. Stress that isn't the same as they would feel on the job, at least I hope you don't also treat your employees the same way.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#572

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #155

dmoy wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you try to hire people who currently have jobs with strict anti moonlighting policies? (Or maybe the answer is just don't bother, and you can afford shrinking the applicant pool without any big adverse effects)

If someone is experienced, you can talk through code and APIs and get a good sense for them. But if you can work with someone before you hire them full-time, you'll greatly increase your hit rate. This may not always work, and it may not even work 50% of the time, but the more people you can hire that you have worked with either through internships or contract work or from previous jobs, the better.

> But if you can work with someone before you hire them full-time, you'll greatly increase your hit rate.

Sure but you also filter out a ton of good candidates. I can't do my full time job plus family life stuff and work for someone else on a side project.

And I'm not going to resign from a job for a "maybe" contract to hire type position.

So it's just a non-starter. And most other programmers I've talked to are the same.

It's different for younger people who don't have families but that's exactly my point. You filter out whole demographics with the contract to hire style.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#573

Post by chrisbennet » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

the-pigeon wrote: post #555

psyc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

Would you be OK with interviewees giving the interviewers a quick coding test? You know, to make sure they won’t be working with people who can’t carry their weight?

Remember, interviews go both ways.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#574

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

JauntTrooper wrote: post #324

matthewmacleod wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that true? I’ve never had a contract that forbade me to work on side projects for cash.

There's often a clause in the Employee Handbook you're asked to agree to periodically.

The clause is unenforceable in most (perhaps all) US states.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#575

Post by newobj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:44 PM UTC

heyoni wrote: post #518

newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

Have you ever had to do homework as part of a job application? I ask because in my experience, the companies asking for these tend to be a bit shady. For instance, one company asked me to do this extract/load to Spark and analyze data thing. I did it because their e-mail said that they would reply to each individual with feedback. Guess what? 3 weeks later I get a canned response! Another job assignment took me 4 day…

Yes, for example, I spent two days implementing a typeahead search results system for Etsy, including writing my own ingestion pipeline, map-reduce framework, index builder, and request processor. Of course Etsy already had their own stuff, this was just a toy done in Java. It was fun. Got offered the job but didn't take it for personal reasons that cropped up concurrent w/ the interview process.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#576

Post by devhead » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

the-pigeon wrote: post #555

psyc wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

> Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is very stressful.

This doesn't sound like something a new hire should be responsible for and more someone who would eventually, after proven themselves able to, participate in.

Interviews are already stressful; you don't need to add to that by putting candidates into even more stressful situations just for kicks.

To flip it around, would you be willing to let the candidate review the details on all technical employees exit interviews and then ask you about them? Maybe review some completed financial audits from previous years? so they can see how the company reacts under pressure?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#577

Post by newobj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:45 PM UTC

gdilla wrote: post #540

haskellandchill wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $300k, $400k+ a year Amazon, Facebook, Google? Those are hard salaries to get in my experience. I'm reasonably well respected in my field; attending conferences, speaking, leading meetups, and tirelessly researching computer science in my free time. Can't get a job at those 3, but going to try and take the hedge fund route I guess (I'm in NYC).

That's total comp. Salaries top out at what you'd expect. It's bonuses, stock grants and discounted stock purchase programs that can push you up there.

The lower half of that range is base.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#578

Post by compiler-guy » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #470

compiler-guy wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not paying for the work doesn’t circumvent most moonlighting policies. The first company still likely claims ownership of your work. Enforcement of that can be tricky, but I doubt that’s a battle most people want to have.

Why wouldn't such a policy prevent you from writing code during an interview? (Amount of code?)

A careful reading of most policies would show that the company claims it does own the code you write during an interview. They just don't care to enforce it because that code never really goes anywhere.

These policies are actually fairly onerous as written. Most of us just get by because the company doesn't care to enforce.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#579

Post by leepowers » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

I agree the investment of time is worth it when you have a strong expectation of landing a high-paying job. That's one caveat to consider. Another: as long as the take-home test comes _later_ in the process, after a more traditional interview, when the company and interviewee have had a chance to evaluate each other.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#580

Post by maxk42 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of.

The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention by a recruiter.

Here's a little tip: If you expect to take more than 2 - 3 hours of someone's time, you should be paying them. Contract-to-hire and trial contracts are very common in the industry and most people have no problem with them. If you require a significant time commitment to interview someone then you should be respecting their time. I don't want to work for any company that doesn't respect my time.