The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#551

Post by monocasa » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #485

monocasa wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hate it, but have now performed enough interviews of supposedly senior devs with decades of experience. I've literally seen someone who did firmware for the space shuttle grind for 45 minutes on fizz buzz without making progress. Like, I'd they struggle for ten minutes or so, I take a step back and say "Ok, screw syntax, let's just vaguely talk about what needs to happen and mock up some pseudo code.". Even…

I always end up linking this piece in response to people like you, and here I am again. These folks have real data on lots of interviews, and have done some analysis on them: http://blog.interviewing.io/you-cant-fix-diversity-in-tech-w... The takeaway that's relevant to you is the section titled "Interview outcomes are kind of arbitrary". Specifically, things like: As you can see, roughly 25% of interviewees are cons…

I'm amused at the idea that because I pass on senior devs who literally can't do FizzBuzz, that I must have a terrible interview process.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#552

Post by BeetleB » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:20 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #322

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

You can tell if someone knows what they are doing by talking to them and having them walk you through what they have worked on. Also, in the United States, you could fire someone easily if they were really incompetent. Considering how much time and money people spend per candidate to interview, it's probably much cheaper and more efficient to hire faster and fire faster. Some companies are spending tens of thousands…

>it's probably much cheaper and more efficient to hire faster and fire faster.

Reality is otherwise. Lots of paperwork involved (for both hiring and firing). And leads to a not-too-great work culture.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#553

Post by markbnj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #514

minimaxir wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In disclosure, all the companies were upfront about the full interview process. That said, in this job market, there isn't much leverage to say no to a prospective job or to make demands of the interview process unless you're already a rockstar.

This is a great point that gets lost because of the widely held “shortage of engineers” myth. The hiring market is strongly an employer’s market. There is far more talent out there seeking relatively few jobs, so employers can dictate terms pretty much absolutely. If they require a 5 day homework, then it’s “homework or GTFO”. If they require whiteboard hazing, it’s “whiteboard or GTFO”. The last real employee’s-mark…

> The hiring market is strongly an employer’s market. There is far more talent out there seeking relatively few jobs, so employers can dictate terms pretty much absolutely.

Wow, are you in the U.S.? This is pretty much the exact opposite of my experience and perception. I'm sure it must vary somewhat based on your specialty and what kind of work you do.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#554

Post by vonmoltke » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #537

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. Working for nothing __is__ obnoxious. Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed. Perhaps licensing a programmer / developer / engineer would be over doing it. (Read: Yes, it would be. But the examples do help.) That said, can't there be…

> Not to belittle anyone but...a plumber is licensed. An electrician is licensed. Even a hair stylist is licensed.

Shitty plumbers are licensed. Shitty electricians are licensed. Shitty hair stylists are licensed. A license says nothing about current competence. It says the person demonstrated some minimal level of competence at one point, fills out their paperwork every year, and hasn't fucked up royally enough yet to have it revoked.

Every time this subject comes up someone inevitably points to licensure as some sort of panacea. Licensure does not replace skills or competency assessments.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#555

Post by the-pigeon » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

psyc wrote: post #397

poulsbohemian wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing.

Depends on the job.

I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress.

Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is very stressful.

If you can't handle the stress of me watching over your shoulder while you code then you can't handle the stress of getting a critical bug fixed immediately. Maybe that's not true for everyone but I haven't heard of a better filter.

Not every position is like this. But that's the big thing I think people miss. Different software positions require different skillets beyond just tech stacks. And the interview process should measure for the particular software engineer skills needed for that position.

I've also hired people who if you just reviewed their code after the exercise you'd think they were terrible. But I'm not testing whether they are good at coding exercises, the test is a tool to see their ability to problem solve under pressure and to see their level of experience with the particularly tech stack.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#556

Post by Viliam1234 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:21 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #466

Clubber wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definition morphs by time and company. At the last place I worked the IT department was the devs, dbas, net admins, and help desk.

This is the case at every non-tech company I've worked at. It's (mostly) the tech companies that segregate IT as a lower-status function.

It can happen either way.

I worked in a tech startup, where everyone did everything, and where doing everything was considered high-status: it meant you were competent at everything. Or perhaps the other way round: trying to avoid any computer-related task, for whatever reason, was perceived as an admission of incompetence, therefore low-status.

(I didn't agree with that philosophy. I am humble enough to admit that I am not an expert at something, e.g. setting up printers; and lazy enough that I want to avoid such work if I can.)

I also worked in a non-tech company with sufficiently large internal software development department, where as a programmer I focused on developing software; and if any part of the technical infrastructure stopped working, I just called the internal tech support.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#557

Post by Bokanovsky » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:22 PM UTC

I've had to do a lot of telephone interviews and then face to face interviews. I'm regularly surprised how many developers can't do basic stuff. I'm not talking code that requires specific knowledge of an obscure area of an API or language, but things like picking the smallest values from an array (without using a language's built in array min function).

At my current company we get them to write code (or something like pseudo code) down on paper. We give them a print out that clearly explains the task, which requires no domain knowledge and then leave them to it for an amount of time to write stuff down on paper. We then go back in the room and get them to talk us through their solution. But so many developers just can't do this.

Then some can, and they can't explain the edge cases, what if the array is empty? What if it's null? What if it's all the same value? They'll just freeze. They would have past the phone screen first to get this far.

We're not looking for more advanced stuff with red–black trees or an exotic data structure. Just a demonstration of what you've written and simple understanding.

In reality, this is an invitation to a conversation. Why did you do it that way? Is there another way to do it? Which way do you prefer? Why? All if this is basic first principle stuff.

Generally when you get to the good candidates you know. They can answer all these questions and you go in different directions with the questions, they're comfortable doing it too. You can get a technical conversation going. They won't lie and I say they can do X, the good candidates will quickly admit they haven't done X or Y, but their overall impression means not knowing X doesn't matter. The trouble is I've had so many candidates who are on the wrong end of the Dunning–Kruger effect.

[Minor grammar edits]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#558

Post by cosmocrackers » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:26 PM UTC

The problem I've always had with these take home tests is the open-ended nature of completion. They will tell you it should only take a few hours of work, but when it's not a timed assessment I'm always going to think, 'well, if I spend a few more hours I'll stand out more.'

How does a company compare two candidates take home assessments when you have no idea how long they have spent on the problem. Candidate One is a great engineer but only has a few hours to work on it. Candidate Two is a mediocre engineer who spends 40 hours on the same project. Of course candidate two's solution is going to be more complete, but you haven't considered the time difference between the two candidates.

When I'm hiring I've given coding homework, but it's time limited; 2 hours, scheduled at the candidates preferred time. I'm not looking for a complete solution, I just want to see how far you get and how you think through a very basic problems. It's trivial to compare two candidates when you know they've spent similar amounts of time on the problem.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#559

Post by ryandrake » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

newobj wrote: post #329

magissima wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're only applying to one job and you get it, sure. But when you're looking for a new job and sending out dozens of resumes, it adds up pretty quickly! On top of that, it makes rejections all the more dispiriting when you spend hours or days working on one job application.

IMHO, if you can't land, say, 1 out of 3 interviews, there is a systemic personal problem, not just a bad day, and "the problem is u" -- sadly you will just need to work harder because something in your skill set is not up to snuff.

My last job hunt (only a few months ago) I probably approached/applied to around 50 companies, got about 10 interviews and 1 offer. I don’t think that’s too far from most tech people’s job hunting experience in today’s environment. If you are getting 1 offer per 3 interviews, you might be “punching way below your weight class.”

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#560

Post by abandonliberty » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 8:27 PM UTC

newobj wrote: post #301

It's unreal that will people will bitch and moan about having to invest a couple days, maybe even a whole week in cramming/prepping/interviewing, to perform on-demand, one time, for a job that realistically will earn them $100k, $200k, $300k, $400k+ a year. Meanwhile people that work harder than us 5 days a week for the entire duration of their career will make 1/2, 1/4, 1/6th, or less of income, with none of the per…

Does it have to be a day? Multiple days? I limit case work to 2 hours, on something we've already solved. Too many of these interviews apparently seek free labor and ideas.

What's really simulated by going off and building something on your own start to finish? You miss out on all the collaborative skills required to ensure you're writing the right code.

If you only care about hiring programming, motherfucker (google it) then by all means.