The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#271

Post by reaperducer » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

nugget wrote: post #242

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

Let me play devil's advocate for a second. Knowing how to write code isn't binary, of course; there's a wide range of skill even among those who have contributed to large production systems. If I hire someone who seems great on paper and turns out to be a dud, then I immediately let them go. It's bad for me, and bad for them. If a 10 hour project-specific coding task reduces mis-hires by 50%+, isn't it better for bot…

>If I hire someone who seems great on paper and turns out to be a dud, then I immediately let them go.

If you keep hiring duds, you shouldn't be allowed to hire people. In spite of what the headhunter firms and cookie-cutter websites would have you believe, interviewing and hiring is a skill, not a punchlist.

>If a 10 hour project-specific coding task reduces mis-hires by 50%+, isn't it better for both parties?

Only if you pay me for my ten hours. Otherwise, you've already indicated that you and your company don't value me or my time.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#272

Post by slezakattack » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

I did a take home assignment a couple years ago where it was time constrained to 2 hours. At first, the idea sounded cool: nobody looking over your shoulder, I can listen to my music, use my tools, and work in my most productive environment. Selfishly, it can be nice (assuming that you didn't just have a long day of work and aren't dirt tired).

I'm very quickly realizing it wasn't that great and in fact, comes off as lazy from the interviewer perspective. There are several "coding interview websites" where you can ask the question, give the candidate a terminal to code, provide a list of available languages, and even have unit tests from the interviewer side to make sure the solution is correct. We've completely abstracted out the interaction and questioning of candidates and it has become a binary "did they get it right or not" type of process. Sure, there's follow up interviews and such but what have you gained from this process that couldn't be asked over the phone?

Worse yet, if you aren't using these tools and simply letting the candidate email you a project (or however they choose to deliver it to you), it can quickly become a time sink as you spend it trying to understand the solution (i.e. why did they interpret the meaning of "API" as a REST service? What is this obscure library they're using? etc.)

No thanks.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#273

Post by Clubber » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #270

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your com…

Bingo. This is how it was done before. 30 minute interview with some quick test questions (what's an array or linked list or what does ++ do), then if it sounded good, hire them. If they didn't work out, fire them. Simple and effective.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#274

Post by monocasa » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #187

some_account wrote: post #89

I prefer homework to timed, monitored programming sessions. But the task should never be a big task. When i interviewed for a backend development position, the task was to set up flask with two routes, connect to a dB and retrieve a couple of rows when user visited the routes. It was not hard even though I never worked with flask before, and it wasn't supposed to be hard either. It was a test if I had basic programmi…

Homework is still timed. It's unavoidable. You have 3 days to spend "any convenient 4hrs, more if you need it"? Your competition spent 60 hrs on the homework, adding bells and whistles that imlddss the interviewer.

> adding bells and whistles that imlddss the interviewer.

Bells and whistles are likely to have the opposite effect on me FWIW. We've got enough work to do around here without inventing more work for yourself. 'Keep It Simple Stupid' as it were.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#275

Post by ksk » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

Are programmers more dishonest than say artists? I imagine an artist could easily fake their portfolio too (especially if they were a digital artist). Maybe the artist would be found out much easier than a programmer. I think the fact that programmers have to re-prove themselves is more a symptom of non-technical people having no earthly idea of what it is that programmers actually do. For a programmer, its the same with other professions. Programmers can't differentiate between the skill levels required to perform a protein assay in a BSL-2 facility, to operate a fermentor in a class 10 facility, to work on tissue culture vaccines. However most people can somewhat differentiate between a nurse, a doctor, and a surgeon. Seems like the more specialized your skill, the less ordinary people can appreciate your skills.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#276

Post by mlboss » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

Problem with take home projects is that there is no commitment from the interviewers side. Candidate wastes time coding up the solution but interviewers does not have any obligation to even look at the solution.

I wasted a week coding up a ML paper but never heard back from the interviewer. At least in white board interview they spend time with you with real time feedback.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#277

Post by bearforcenine » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #270

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your com…

What do I do when I quit my current job, move across the country, and then get fired 30 days later? I would likely never accept an offer at a company that tells me up front there is a good chance I will be let go in 30 or 60 days.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#278

Post by Clubber » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

teachrdan wrote: post #265

reaperducer wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industr…

>And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center.

Only by beancounters, and if you take it away and go back to paper, they'll quickly change their mind.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#279

Post by azinman2 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:50 PM UTC

erichurkman wrote: post #166

azinman2 wrote: post #104

I actually prefer take home. I’m not great at white board solutions as they’re basically asking you to solve something immediately with a gun to your head in real time. It’s very unnatural. Take home gives me time to think about something more like I would job. That said there needs to be a balance where the tasks are enough of a test to give indication of quality of work without taking 3 full time days to finish.

Whiteboard is cruel for actual coding. It's too far removed from your normal tools. Whiteboarding can be good for architectural design or stepping through something. A sixty minute screen share is the sweet spot for me. They get to use whatever environment they are familiar with. Seeing someone work in their environment also tells you potentially a lot about the candidate. Staff engineer that can't navigate their deb…

That’s interesting. How does one build test cases in excel?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#280

Post by Clubber » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

bearforcenine wrote: post #277

ams6110 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your com…

What do I do when I quit my current job, move across the country, and then get fired 30 days later? I would likely never accept an offer at a company that tells me up front there is a good chance I will be let go in 30 or 60 days.

There is only a good chance if you misrepresented your abilities and aren't able to get up to speed in 30-90 days. If that is the case, you deserve to be let go.