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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#261

Post by andyidsinga »

h1srf wrote: post #238
andyidsinga wrote: post #213

My response - and even how I got jobs early in my career as a developer was this: "let me know show you some of the software I've developed on my own - I'd me happy to tell you how it works, the tech involved and the patterns used ..yada yada" Corollary : if you apply for a job or walk into a tech interview and can't talk about these things, its a red flag for the interviewer. PS. Now well on in my career, and having…

I have been developing software for 12 years. I can't show you anything that I've worked on because it has all been internal tools. I can talk about what I've built, but I can't show it to you or show you any code.

yep -- see my response below on same subject. Key is to walk through the "what" and discuss contrived examples ..as an interviewer I might ask you to show me pseudo code ..but really the more you can describe a contrived system and detail how you would implement, the less my BS detectors will be going off.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#263

Post by Raphmedia »

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

> Working at my pace with my tools in my space?

My life is separated. I have a computer filled with dev tools at work but my home computer is a media center plugged on the TV. I do have a laptop for emergency work but that computer is provided by my employer.

I wouldn't do the job interview on that computer.

Whenever some company tells me to do homework as part of their hiring process I simply run away. What this tells me is that they expect their employees to do unpaid work at home.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#264

Post by radicalbyte »

This practice is a massive warning sign. I've only seen it applied by companies who lacked the technical competency to actually interview a candidate in depth. If the tech lead / architect is competent then he/she can just a candidate from the CV and an hour of chatting.

The two worst developers I've ever had in my team both aced those interviews. How? Their colleagues did most of the work for them. It worked out great for me, it cleared out the dead wood and punished some faker at another company :)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#265

Post by teachrdan »

reaperducer wrote: post #255
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center.

Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industry.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#266

Post by epx »

I would love to have the chance of doing some work for a company being paid a low rate or nothing at all to prove myself. That's how I incidentally got my best jobs. In the last interview the RH recruiter labeled me "arrogant" - God knows where she took that one from. Most probably concealed ageism.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#267

Post by walshemj »

EliRivers wrote: post #26
abhinai wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just that firing someone is legal does not mean it is easy. Especially if you have been working closely with the said person for months. And then there are people who are very nice human beings but their performance just isn't good enough. Firing them is hard and pretty bad for team morale. I'd much rather do that extra work during the hiring process than have to deal with a bad hire later.

Money where your mouth is; are you willing to pay for it? Would you pay the candidate a reasonable sum, certainly over a hundred Euros a day (after tax etc.) for their pre-interview homework? Given that the cost of a bad hire is orders of magnitude more than that, this seems like a really good deal for the company.

A Hundred euros lol far to low id want 500 a day for a 3-6 month contract for just 3 days id want more.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#268

Post by ModernMech »

waylandsmithers wrote: post #246
speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

As someone who does a lot of interviewing, I tone down the technical stuff as the experience and responsibility level increases. I think a lot of the annoyances you mention still make sense for an entry level position, because there are a lot of folks who actually can't write code who apply for those jobs. For candidates with many years of experience, obviously they can and have been writing software effectively, so…

I have a PhD in Computer Science and 10 years in the industry, and I've never not been asked to do some trivial programming task in an interview. Thanks for showing some common sense, but most interviewers are just lazy. One time I couldn't implement a skiplist, and the feedback I got was "we were concerned about your problem solving skills".

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#269

Post by rhapsodic »

minimaxir wrote: post #203
rhapsodic wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step. In this case, I don't see it as unreasonable, because you didn't have to do the project just to have a shot at someone talking to you in person. I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned…

> I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates. When I was job hunting last year, the steps typically went like this. 1) 30 min phone call 2) Homework 3) Algorithm Exam 4) Onsite I t…

>I typically got rejected at #3 which means the homework meant nothing.

It got you to step #3, but if I were applying to that company, I would not have done the homework. When they told me of the homework assignment, I would have asked, "assuming I do it, what comes next?" And when they replied "an algorithm exam, followed by an onsite interview", my reply would have been, "homework is the last step, or no thank you."

Then again, I have almost two decades of experience and a well-established track record of accomplishments. And I currently have a solid, well-paying job. If I were fresh out of school, trying to land my first programming job, I would probably be more flexible.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#270

Post by ams6110 »

speby wrote: post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

> we don't really have a way to de-facto verify that the person can do what they say they can do

We do, it's called the probationary period. 30 or 60 days, or even a bit more. If the person isn't working out, or is not a good "fit" you can say goodbye. And it goes both ways. Candidates might find that the actual work or work environment is not what was portrayed in the recruitment process. If they don't like your company, they can leave.

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