Live data from Hacker News

The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

work.qz.com

231–240 of 1001 posts

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#231
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

What would you prefer? Some sort of rating or ranking system based off of objective standards?

licensing might not be a bad route, similar to a carpenter's license or a bar exam

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#232
post #57

Despite some of the comments here, I'm actually a fan of the 'homework' format. I'm not always great at hiring, but I know how to gauge the 'homework' interviews, and I've usually been right about the interviewee's abilities afterwards, WAY moreso than whiteboarding or riddles or any of the other alternatives. That being said, I would add some constraints: 1. The 'task' shouldn't take more than 30 min to understand,…

Well when done this way with all the constraints you specified, then yes the homework interview works very well. Unfortunately, the vast majority of hiring managers do not come anywhere close to any of the points you mentioned. Just last week, I was interviewing for an opportunity as a VP of Engineering for a post-early-stage startup. The CTO gave me a take home assignment involving building not one but three complet…

There's a trade-off for companies. This kind of hiring process will filter out 99% of low-quality candidates, while also filtering out This is great for companies who are willing to sacrifice getting the best candidate for assurance they won't get a bad one. This makes sense for a small startup, where a poor candidate hurts growth more than a great candidate helps it, but less so for a Google-class company where a single great candidate is like a billion dollar lottery ticket and the bad candidates cost almost nothing.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#233
I say this every time this sort of article comes up here, but seeing how ridiculous this field has become, I wish I had chosen a different career path.

I don’t know if I’m going to be able to go through all this bullshit the next time I’m looking for a job.

I have a friend who is a pharmacist and I asked her what a typical interview is like for her. She said interviewers will typically ask something like “tell me about a difficult situation you had to deal with at work?”.

No homework, whiteboards, group interviews, or stupid puzzles. No bullshit.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#234
post #218

Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. In an ideal world, you could trust someone's resume. e.g. "I've written large production programs in C." Ok, great, so then clearly this person knows C so there should be no need to dissect code or run them thru some linked list algorithm and see if they know how to use pointers correctly. Yet, we do. Ok, then what about open source contributions (if they have…

What would you prefer? Some sort of rating or ranking system based off of objective standards?

I'm sure there's a blockchain solution out there somewhere (half-joking)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#235
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially irritating considering I've dedicated tens of thousands of dollars and six years of my life completing a bachelor's and a master's degree in computer science where people whose entire job was to give me tests and evaluate me on them - maybe you'd like to take their word for it?

You got a degree in computer science not programming.

And yet, every last freakin employer is requiring a BS in computer science. Combine that with ever longer programming assignments and stagnant wages and These are all signs of a vast talent surplus.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#236
I believe the big problem people have with take-home work is trust. Nobody wants to do a take-home assignment that doesn't really impact their prospects of getting a job, or, worse, that has only downside for them. Hiring teams give assignments and then run a standard interview gauntlet. On both sides, most people believe it's the interviewers making the real decisions, without much consultation to the tests.

The candidate thinks, what's the point? It's a seller's market. I'll work somewhere that doesn't haze candidates.

We run work-sample challenges now, and (loudly) did so for about a decade at Matasano. We had essentially no complaints once we locked our process in. Part of the reason why, I think, is that we tried hard to be very clear about our process. But more importantly, the work-sample challenges made most of the decision. When we told candidates the time they spent on the challenge offset time they'd have to spend in person performing for an interviewer, we weren't lying. A 4-5 out of 5 average on our challenges more or less totally technically qualified a candidate; the odds were overwhelming that such a candidate would get an offer from us, and we told them so before they came in for interviews.

What I think I see now is hiring teams who want to have things both ways. They don't want to take a leap of faith with a new process, so they're still abdicating their responsibility to random subjective interviewers. But they want to look on-trend and competent, so they assign homework.

When you get on the phone with one of these teams and want to check them out, ask about the rubric for the challenge, and ask if they're going to do any on-site technical qualification after you do them (if they're giving challenges after the interviews instead of before, hang up the phone on them.) I'd be surprised if even half the companies that assign homework even have a rubric.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially irritating considering I've dedicated tens of thousands of dollars and six years of my life completing a bachelor's and a master's degree in computer science where people whose entire job was to give me tests and evaluate me on them - maybe you'd like to take their word for it?

The problem is, there are people with those degrees who still can't even code fizzbuzz.

I got a TDD fizzbuzz question once. Later learned that the interviewer told people it was the best interview he’d ever done.

But halfway through I got stuck. Something wasn’t clicking. This is stupid. I could do this in my sleep what’s going on? How much time do I have left?

So I did the only thing I could do. I wrote more tests, figured it out and got the job. Became a lead.

Conversely I’ve worked with many people who can handle trivial problem after trivial problem all day long without breaking a sweat. Give them data that isn’t arranged the way they need it though, and they crumble. Convoluted code full of redundant decisions or data rearranged in an inconsistent (or even data loss) fashion. Always had to be rewritten because we had five more features to add in the same place and you can’t build on sand.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#238

My response - and even how I got jobs early in my career as a developer was this: "let me know show you some of the software I've developed on my own - I'd me happy to tell you how it works, the tech involved and the patterns used ..yada yada" Corollary : if you apply for a job or walk into a tech interview and can't talk about these things, its a red flag for the interviewer. PS. Now well on in my career, and having…

I have been developing software for 12 years. I can't show you anything that I've worked on because it has all been internal tools. I can talk about what I've built, but I can't show it to you or show you any code.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#239
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've definitely seen some prompts that looked suspiciously production-ready. It's usually not "build out our new feature", because spinup time is a thing, but some companies do seem to throw around "build our new one-off microservice". Stuff like "given this incoming data, set up intake, a storage layer, and a backend layer that applies formula X". If the data and the formula look business-relevant, it's at least eno…

Wow the pendulum has swung from "employers don't ask any relevant questions" to "I mistrust employers who ask relevant questions".

I should maybe have gone into more detail on that example. If BigCompany or even AcceleratorCompany asks for product-relevant work, I'm not going to assume they're having random people off the street write production code.

What I've seen is something like "this is a startup in market X, whose product doesn't do Y but could, and they're asking candidates to write code that does Y, and sign over all rights to everything provided during the interview process".

Optimistically, it means that if whoever they hire will be told "hey, first assignment is Y, you've already made progress!" Pessimistically, it goes in the same category as "Whartonite seeks codemonkey" and "sign this NDA to interview" - it's a matter of ego and ambition exceeding skill.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many engineers would accept an offer which is conditional on "a week or two of contract work"? Most of the engineers that I've hired came from another job (not all though), and so they need a confirmed offer before they are willing to jump ship. So this practice introduces its own selection bias; you'd only be sampling from the pool of currently un-/fun-employed, and those who hate their current job enough to qui…

> How many engineers would accept an offer which is conditional on "a week or two of contract work"? Unless you work on Google or something with the same size, more than you expect to hire. And yes, you will biasing your candidate pool. Every kind of procedure will bias the candidate pool. Again, unless your company is Google-sized, the only important thing about that bias is if it align with the preponderant bias (w…

> Again, unless your company is Google-sized, the only important thing about that bias is if it align with the preponderant bias (what is bad) or not.

If you mean (which is bad) then I agree completely. You want your set of biases (biases being errors in hiring, meaning the things you select on that don't match with what the job needs) to be as different as possible from the rest of the industry. Whenever you can pick up people who are good who aren't getting picked up by the rest of the industry, everyone wins.

Post reply on HN