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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#191

Post by hinkley »

isostatic wrote: post #125
commandlinefan wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> timed, monitored programming sessions When I found myself out of work last year, I interviewed for a big auto company - their interview process involved an online coding session. They gave me a spec for an assignment and asked me to complete it in 20 minutes - I could pick Java or Python. I picked Java, and got the spec - it was ridiculously simple. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, "wr…

> better qualified candidates in the pipeline Probably the ones that read the spec and delivered what was required. If you're going to gloss over something trivial, what does that say about your attention to detail?

Silver lining: people make mistakes. Especially under stress. You don’t want to work with a group that thinks we are machines.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#192

Post by scott_s »

threatofrain wrote: post #141
scott_s wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Privilege" is not generally understood to be granted out of generosity or grace. The dictionary definition is "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most" ( http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege ) which sounds like it applies to software developers when compared to the rest of the workforce. One can enjoy a privilege even if it wasn't intentionally granted by another pa…

I thought of undue grace or generosity because typically the term is used to criticize the unmeritorious for undue position -- is it not? What does it mean if I say you are privileged? When one looks further at the definitions listed for privilege, one sees examples discussing kings and royalty for birthrights. If we're discussing whether people are unworthy, then we are on the same page.

To me, "undue grace" and "generosity" imply some actor who imparts such grace or generosity. But that's not required for privilege. Particularly when people talk about enjoying a privilege in the social-justice way (which I believe to the kind of criticism you're talking about), they're often using it to mean a lack of discrimination as opposed to granting an elevated status. For example, if someone has the expectation that they can walk through a store without getting harassed, we may say they enjoy a privilege, even though most people would agree that should be the norm - because there are people who do expect to get harassed. The reason I think it's important to remove an actor who grants privilege is that its causes are often structural and implicit, as opposed to intentional and explicit. And it's less a criticism than it is a way of pointing out that some people's default expectations for how the world works and will react to them is quite different from others.

Put another way, privilege is often used when some people tend to experience a fairer world than others. But expecting a fair world is how it should be! That's not "undue grace", as everyone should experience a fair world.

(Just so we're clear: this is a full-on semantic discussion, and I'm okay with that.)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#193

Post by vinceguidry »

pwthornton wrote: post #98

If you're going to expect people to do real work, you need to pay them. This is common in a field like journalism. Want to do a one or two day trial of a reporter? Pay them to write for you! Have them work in a real environment and do real work for publication. If you're not willing to pay people for their time, and it's not an executive position, asking for days of a person's time is asinine. Also, if the homework i…

An offer of payment does not make silly time commitments palatable for me. I already have a job. If I wanted more cash, I'd just moonlight.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#194

Post by ShabbosGoy »

collyw wrote: post #29
dosycorp wrote: post #21

I don't want to name names but one YC company I interviewed at left me with the distinct impression that they talked a big game, just to get me to work on one of their (apparently) "strictly-hiring-related toy projects" as homework. Homework, "sure", except it: 1) integrated with a real system, 2) mirrored something they actually did, and 3) they would only agree to proceed if I signed an IP/work contract and accepte…

I have noticed a trend of not naming companies here. Is it against the rules? I fell that we should name and shame companies that are disrespectful of peoples time.

It’s a chilling effect caused by overzealous moderation.

When Coinbase first launched, someone was having issues getting funds out of there. That person made a thread on HN, and the response has always been “HN is not a support forum for YC companies” by the moderation team.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#195

Post by learc83 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #178
learc83 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. At least in the US, this isn't a problem. You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year. No need to have any kind of established company/status, because by default anyone running a business without incorporating or organizing is operating a sole propriet…

> You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year. Wow, that's awesome. What happens, for example, if someone is unemployed, then doing work for you and either gets sick on his own or gets injured on the job? In Germany, for an employed person, the medical insurance would cover #1 and the Unfallversicherung (accident insurance) of the employer would cover #2. Let me gue…

>What happens, for example, if someone is unemployed, then doing work for you and either gets sick on his own or gets injured on the job?

For the first case--nothing at all.

For the second case--generally nothing as long as the person is really an independent contractor.

In the US there are guidelines that determine whether someone is an employee or a contractor. For example is the person flexible to work whenever they want, or do they have to be in the office from 9-5. Does the person have to wear a uniform etc. Is the position short term etc...

So if someone were injured on the job, they could claim that they even though the company said they were an independent contractor, they were actually an employee because of xyz.

Most employers know this so they take steps to ensure independent contractors actually fit the guidelines for independent contractor. And in the case of paying a tech contractor for a few weeks, it's usually pretty clear cut.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#196

Post by ghaff »

learc83 wrote: post #156
mschuster91 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an additional difficulty in many cases: the law. Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. To "hire" someone formally for a week, though, entails a lot of paperwork and has, depending on the country, legal consequences (e.g. voting rights in worker councils, minimum employment durations, right to sue for wrongful termination)... The opt…

>Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. At least in the US, this isn't a problem. You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year. No need to have any kind of established company/status, because by default anyone running a business without incorporating or organizing is operating a sole propriet…

Yeah. This is no different for me being paid to write a book or receiving an honorarium for something while employed by someone.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#197

Post by wintorez »

Why do you want to work for a company that gives you days of unpaid homework? If you're given such a task, simply state that you don't think you'll be a good fit for them, and move on. It is an employees job market at the moment, and every tech company has several unoccupied openings.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#198

Post by gowld »

apetresc wrote: post #149
derwiki wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the task was to set up flask with two routes Setting up a web server is also a different skill than backend programming -- many experienced back-end programmers have never needed to spin up a new server for their job.

I'm very comfortable with never hiring a backend programmer for whom this is an insurmountable obstacle.

There are plenty of surmountable obstacles that are a waste of interview time. Why give a jr admin task that any teenager can do as a test for a professional programmer?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#199

Post by gowld »

erichurkman wrote: post #151
isostatic wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> better qualified candidates in the pipeline Probably the ones that read the spec and delivered what was required. If you're going to gloss over something trivial, what does that say about your attention to detail?

Alternatively, it's someone that wrote a solution, re-validated it against the spec, realized it was not fully correct, and was able to correct it within the deadline given. Hiring isn't yet a science.

Orn someone who wrote a massively over engineered spaghetti mess instead of wrapping a block of code in a loop control.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#200

Post by gowld »

hvidgaard wrote: post #42
danpalmer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to pass judgement on your coding exercise, and it certainly seems fishy with the contract, however... I would point out that on the hiring side, evaluating a submitted project in a way that can differentiate between good and great candidates, and that the reviewers can understand well enough to get the signal they need, is very difficult. Because of this, I know several times we have asked candidates to…

That is fine, just be upfront about it. Still require a contract for it is reeking of trying to get work for "free". If you have it running in production, and use it because you understand it thoroughly, it shouldn't matter what the candidate comes up with. Any new insight he might bring you can always incorporate with your own code. In any case none of the code is expected to be used in production, and if it turns o…

> Any new insight he might bring you can always incorporate with your own code

Only if the contract is signed.

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