The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#171

Post by gowld » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #117

always_good wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of the shortage is due to there only being a relatively small portion of jobs that developers actually want. Every time I've worked at a small company that had obvious perks (using a cool language, building a cool product), we had a bunch of applicants to pick from. We could be picky. But the few times I worked at a company on soul-sucking work like internal legacy tools in VBScript for a non-tech c…

I never see a shortage of people applying. I usually see a great shortage of people I want to hire. Mid-level position, asking for 5 years of related experience? 85% of the resumes have no related experience. Fresh out of school, that is. The virtual pile gets much shorter when minimal criteria are applied.

Have you tried developing your junior talent instead of driving them away so you need to fill a gap at mid-level?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#172

Post by kilbuz » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

Agree. I'm going to spend days of unpaid time 'cramming' for whatever random whiteboard questions I think they might ask me anyway. I'd rather put the time into showing how the work I actually do might be useful to their team. Makes a lot more sense from both sides IMO.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#173

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

theptip wrote: post #140

deepGem wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Just a week or two of contract work will tell you if the candidate is a fit or not. A 30 minute phone screen will tell you if a candidate is worthy of a contract. I think companies don't do this because a. They don't want to pay and b. They don't get to gloat 'we have a super rigorous hiring process'

How many engineers would accept an offer which is conditional on "a week or two of contract work"? Most of the engineers that I've hired came from another job (not all though), and so they need a confirmed offer before they are willing to jump ship. So this practice introduces its own selection bias; you'd only be sampling from the pool of currently un-/fun-employed, and those who hate their current job enough to qui…

> How many engineers would accept an offer which is conditional on "a week or two of contract work"?

Unless you work on Google or something with the same size, more than you expect to hire.

And yes, you will biasing your candidate pool. Every kind of procedure will bias the candidate pool. Again, unless your company is Google-sized, the only important thing about that bias is if it align with the preponderant bias (what is bad) or not.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#174

Post by gowld » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #147

pluto9 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is exactly how employers abuse the H1B system. Give an employer absolute power over an immigrant worker with no connections, support network, or other job options and their residency status on the line--what could possibly go wrong?

To be fair, such an employer usually can't get a H1B these days. Which is probably for the best because those people were probably not completely truthful when they described their tech experience. There is also an filtering effect on job sites where good jobs get snapped up right away and disappear from the site, while delusional prospects concentrate over time, causing people to think that those sites have nothing…

Bingo!

Where are all the good employees? They have jobs.

Where are all the good jobs? They have employees.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#175

Post by mavelikara » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #98

If you're going to expect people to do real work, you need to pay them. This is common in a field like journalism. Want to do a one or two day trial of a reporter? Pay them to write for you! Have them work in a real environment and do real work for publication. If you're not willing to pay people for their time, and it's not an executive position, asking for days of a person's time is asinine. Also, if the homework i…

> Want to work on my team? I'll screen the resumes, I'll do the phone interviews and then I'll bring you in in person. I'll be in on all of the interviews you have with various people.

FWIW, if I were one of the interviewers on OPs team, I will find this to be micromanaging and will be uncomfortable.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#176

Post by smokinn » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #117

always_good wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much of the shortage is due to there only being a relatively small portion of jobs that developers actually want. Every time I've worked at a small company that had obvious perks (using a cool language, building a cool product), we had a bunch of applicants to pick from. We could be picky. But the few times I worked at a company on soul-sucking work like internal legacy tools in VBScript for a non-tech c…

I never see a shortage of people applying. I usually see a great shortage of people I want to hire. Mid-level position, asking for 5 years of related experience? 85% of the resumes have no related experience. Fresh out of school, that is. The virtual pile gets much shorter when minimal criteria are applied.

When you say you require 5 years of related experience as a minimum bar, most applicants read we don't train or invest in our employees. It's not surprising you don't get the best candidates applying.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#177

Post by rhapsodic » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:46 PM UTC

markbnj wrote: post #153

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

Came here to say almost exactly this. I can't speak to the bias issue. I do know that spending three days doing a little chat app last time around landed me one of the best gigs I've had. The process was painless, I would have spent that time coding and refreshing skills anyway, and the project was actually fun. I also know 100% that if the company I work for encountered a candidate who needed more time to work on th…

>I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step.

In this case, I don't see it as unreasonable, because you didn't have to do the project just to have a shot at someone talking to you in person.

I would never do a homework project as the first step in an application process. I would do one as the last step, after I had learned enough about the job and the company to decide that I really wanted it, and they had narrowed down the field to me and a handful of other candidates.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#178

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #156

mschuster91 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an additional difficulty in many cases: the law. Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. To "hire" someone formally for a week, though, entails a lot of paperwork and has, depending on the country, legal consequences (e.g. voting rights in worker councils, minimum employment durations, right to sue for wrongful termination)... The opt…

>Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. At least in the US, this isn't a problem. You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year. No need to have any kind of established company/status, because by default anyone running a business without incorporating or organizing is operating a sole propriet…

> You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year.

Wow, that's awesome. What happens, for example, if someone is unemployed, then doing work for you and either gets sick on his own or gets injured on the job?

In Germany, for an employed person, the medical insurance would cover #1 and the Unfallversicherung (accident insurance) of the employer would cover #2. Let me guess: the (potential) employee is totally uninsured in the US during such an relationship?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#179

Post by gowld » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #54

raducu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the complaining is just a tantrum fit of an emotionally immature industry who, just like a spoiled child has had it very easy so far. "Why aren't there 100x more people than I actually need (because we only hire top 1%, right?) with 100 years of working experience with this technology that I just dreamt last night that want to work for free?"

Developers have a similar attitude, despite currently being one of the most privileged segments of the workforce save perhaps investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery - like it happens in almost any other professional field with similar compensation. The industry requirement to prov…

Programmer is one of the only jobs where you have to actually show work related talent in an interview. Some jobs have strong credentials, most jobs it's bullshitting and resume.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#180

Post by minimaxir » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

> Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please.

I've seen varying schools of thought where a 3 day time limit implies you're expected to spend full workdays (3*8 = 24 hours) on it, which is less at your own pace.

I'm still annoyed at a 2-day assignment I was given which could not be done in less than 16 man hours.