Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#121

Post by matte_black » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:28 PM UTC

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #116

matte_black wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me this is just throwing money at a poverty problem and hoping it will fix itself. It will never work, UBI will inevitably raise prices of things so people will need more basic income to get what they want. That means having to either give out more UBI or have the program become irrelevant because it doesn’t keep up with standards of living. A free house though is a free house. It does not become any less of a hou…

> A free house though is a free house. It does not become any less of a houses just because more people have houses. What about houses that are damaged or destroyed? Will your "trivial" system repair or replace them? What if the occupant is responsible for the damage or destruction? What if this is the second or third such free home they've destroyed? And how will people move? Can they move? Can people trade homes? C…

Why do you think a free home must come with some restrictions? It’s very simple. It’s yours, free and clear.

Do whatever you want with it, even destroy it. But you’re not getting another one. And if it’s damaged you need to repair it. Buy insurance if you can. If you can’t deal with it get a free condo or apartment instead not a SFH. If theres a big natural disaster and your home is affected apply for aid or perhaps a new home for these special cases.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#122

Post by yardie » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:31 PM UTC

jandrese wrote: post #119

yardie wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Florida, the Seminole tribes distribute thousands of dollars/month, to each of their members just for being alive. Many of them end up having chronic issues with drug and alcohol abuse. Okay I was with you for a little bit but this part of your comment is completely off the mark. The casinos are built on tribal land. And in many cases owned by the tribe. For all intents and purposes the tribe is a corporation. M…

IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMH…

I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere.

Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out and still be useful you can't design a UBI where everyone is going to use the money as we judge best.

A new New Deal I think should cover more than just infrastructure. There are public works of art that we have now that would not exist if not for the fact that some administrator in the New Deal era thought having artwork was also important.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#123

Post by ghaff » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:37 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #120

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But money is fungible, even among different currencies; think exchange rates.

What’s the value of a currency that can only be used to buy limited items?

Somewhat lower because of transaction costs associated with barter and black markets but it still has value.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#124

Post by Detoxer » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #89

swebs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds very similar to the FairTax bill that's been proposed since the 90's. Only with FairTax money comes from sales tax rather than income. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax

"FairTax" doesn't work because sales tax is extremely regressive. Rich people don't spend nearly as much of their income as poor people, and they frequently don't even spend it inside the country. Sales tax just ends up hurting the working class the most.

The FAIRtax eliminates the most regressive tax for low earners--the Social Security/Medicare tax. The FAIRtax also provides an exemption up to the poverty level for all households with valid SS cards. It also eliminates the IRS and filing. If more money is needed for lower income then pay directly not through tax code.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#125

Post by icebraining » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #118

icebraining wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dense, tall building in SF could hold homes for a lot of residents at once. That's not the point. An apartment in a dense, tall building in SF will still cost more than an apartment in a dense, tall building almost anywhere else. Who gets to live in SF if too many people want to? It means you get a car when you learn to drive, or else just take a bus. So your UBI discriminates against people who can't drive, who ar…

> That's not the point. An apartment in a dense, tall building in SF will still cost more than an apartment in a dense, tall building almost anywhere else. Who gets to live in SF if too many people want to? A random lottery for high demand low supply places. > So your UBI discriminates against people who can't drive, who are oftentimes the people most in need. Also, it promotes massive waste, since I'll ask for a car…

A random lottery for high demand low supply places.

So a bunch of people with no ties to SF will get a place for free that they'll sublet (and then live somewhere else). How does this not distort the market?

When you’re giving stuff away you always have to accept people wasting it.

So much for saving money with those economics of scale.

Considering it’s the only basic car people can get I doubt they will just sell it off so easily.

There's always a buyer if it's cheap enough. The State buys for $10000, the person sells for $500, then the distributor sells it Latin America or Africa for $2000.

Plus regulation can easily block export of basic cars.

Legal export, sure. Illegal, not really. And especially if the owner is complicit.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#126

Post by icebraining » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #120

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But money is fungible, even among different currencies; think exchange rates.

What’s the value of a currency that can only be used to buy limited items?

"The black market for food stamps — where recipients sell the federal vouchers for cash — has grown by 30 percent in recent years, the Agriculture Department said in a just-released study. (...) In figures, sales of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program vouchers brought in $858 million in cash in the 2009-2011 period, compared to $330 million in the 2006-2008 time frame."

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#127

Post by Bjartr » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

smokeyj wrote: post #38

magduf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2/ Regardless of what version of UBI you personally support, it is probably not a good idea to give money to those who don't need it. Wrong. The system doesn't work if you don't give people to money who don't need it: the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high. This is the reason UBI was invented in the first place! It's very simple: you giv…

> the administrative requirements of assessing who and who doesn't need it, and then policing all this, is just too high Oh okay this makes sense. > To make up for this, you raise the taxes a commensurate amount on the people who don't need it Wait just a second..

I think the point is that you have one audit system, the IRS, instead of two, the IRS and welfare programs.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#128

Post by jandrese » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #122

jandrese wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO this is more correct than you give it credit for. Humans need to feel a sense of accomplishment to maintain their mental health over the long term. Just giving them money to survive without giving them something to do leads to high rates of depression and self destructive behavior. A good percentage of the population is not self starters, they'll sit on their ass all day long if nobody forces them to get up. IMH…

I'm not sure what a good percentage is but I know the majority of the population is self-motivated. What that motivation is can very greatly and is affected by resources. I've sat on my ass plenty of times and watched TV simply because I didn't have the money to go anywhere. Will there people who abuse that goodwill? There is in almost every system. Just like you can't design the perfect lock to keep all thieves out…

Maybe, but I've done charity work in south West Virginia and welfare depression is a serious issue in former coal country. You want to see the people do just anything but they've lost all motivation. It's not everybody, but it's a big enough percentage of the population to cause a lot of problems.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#129

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

Reading the comments, I'm getting the feeling of "No True UBI". Every UBI-ish attempt that has been mentioned so far, someone says, "But that's not real UBI, because..."

We may need some more precise definitions. UBI-1 is some precisely-defined thing, UBI-2 is some other precisely-defined thing, and so on. Then we can say, well, Saudi Arabia did and still does UBI-4, and it has had these effects. Then we can look at various experiments and start learning something about whether UBI is workable, and if so, what kind of UBI it needs to be.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#130

Post by geezerjay » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 5:29 PM UTC

tachudda wrote: post #93

matte_black wrote: post #61

Instead of giving out money, why not give out the basic necessities directly? A free home, free utilities, free food, a basic vehicle, free clothes, free healthcare? If you’re happy with these things you’re set, if you want more you work for it and acquire money. Seems like this would accomplish the same goals of UBI, but with less risks and impact on the economy, and at some point you can benefit from economies of s…

Often times when I've seen this discussed, the reasoning behind straight cash vs just necessities, it often has to do with overhead. If you just give people money, its easier to administer, everyone in the program gets the same cash, theres no inventory to administer, theres nothing to check. The other thing often discussed in the same manner is help that has certain "morality" clauses, such as welfare or help, but o…

> If you just give people money, its easier to administer, everyone in the program gets the same cash, theres no inventory to administer, theres nothing to check.

You'll also get rid of all the public sector workers which represent a significant population cohort that is directly and personally invested preserving the rulling regime and also the status quo. Once you lose that, you destabilize a whole society.