Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens • Hacker News Board

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#191

Post by walshemj » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Let met get this right you ae cool with "corporations" doing this with zero oversight but not with law enforcement and TLA's who have at least some legal oversight.

Are you are also cool with companies in the past hiring pinkertons to kill people also - because that's where your argument is leading.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#192

Post by RedTennisRacket » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #187

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here: - In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the…

Thank you for participating here. "Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement ... is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy." Trust is built on transparency, accountability, responsibility. Can I make FOIA requests to Palantir?

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time.

In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide them etc documented online without having to do any kind of request.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#193

Post by ta76567656 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:23 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #167

opportune wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

> If the warrantless surveillance includes information such as the time and place of where you plan to commit a crime, law enforcement can stop you for a random check on the way there, giving them actual evidence for prosecution. why is that a bad thing? If the crime is victimless (such as any drug usage "crime"), then the issue isn't with the police, but with the state defining what "crime" is, and that definition d…

Selective enforcement. Practice surveillance of the population. Select political opponent, as desired. Consult surveillance data. By random chance, sometimes you will find something. Parallel construct a case. Proceed to blackmail/extort/convict. Maintain political power. Repeat.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#194

Post by ataggart » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #174

opportune wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here: - In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TE3WYUVj4U

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#195

Post by cezart » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:40 PM UTC

ideophobia wrote: post #82

I used to be intelligence analyst that utilized Palantir on a daily basis. Ask me anything.

What kind of databases were used in your case for the analysis? Was it only the databases you provided them? Or are there also some generic sources Palantir provides by default? Or do they even cross-reference data from different clients?

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#196

Post by currysausage » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:41 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #186

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

> I certainly wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knew I was writing software with the explicit purpose of being able to track down rebels in Yemen, catch illegal immigrants, and violate the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. Perhaps open-source licenses should explicitly exclude use in certain applications. Even if not legally enforceable, it would serve as a constant reminder to developers who DO…

Something along the lines of "The Software shall be used for Good, not Evil"? ;) https://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article46/json-license

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#197

Post by flyingcircus3 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:42 PM UTC

When a company is named after the crystal ball an evil wizard uses to spy on his enemies in The Lord of The Rings, and that company's founder was the first large investor in Facebook, and that same founder is able to fund company ending lawsuits against media outlets, headlines like this are akin to "water is wet"

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#198

Post by UncleEntity » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:47 PM UTC

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #192

specialist wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for participating here. "Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement ... is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy." Trust is built on transparency, accountability, responsibility. Can I make FOIA requests to Palantir?

FOIAs are not made to companies, they are made to government entities. But yes, of course you can make FOIA requests to government entities we work with (the law guarantees you this privilege), and about the work we do with them -- reporters do this all the time. In some of the more liberal countries the things we do with the government are even part of public record and you can find contracts and services we provide…

Yep, and they get squashed for "national security" reasons because learning how gangbangers are tracked will also let the $current_enemy_in_the_war_on_terror know how they are being selected for drone strikes.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#199

Post by bob88 » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:51 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #164

opportune wrote: post #42

I'm much less concerned with Palantir being used internally by corporations to detect information leaks (although in practice this also means it will be used to quash whistleblowers), since that's at least a viable use for their technology. And it's good that Palantir is pivoting towards less invasive applications of their technology such as supply chain tracking. But the article touches on the biggest issue with Pal…

Palantir's repeated forays into politics are a bit troubling as well, particularly when combined with the issues you mention.

What are their repeated forays into politics?

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#200

Post by lioeters » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:54 PM UTC

RedTennisRacket wrote: post #174

opportune wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here: - In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the…

Thank you for this honest and straight-forward response, it was eye-opening to hear the perspective from the "inside". It helped me to have a more balanced view of the issues under discussion.