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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#151

Post by erichurkman »

isostatic wrote: post #125
commandlinefan wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> timed, monitored programming sessions When I found myself out of work last year, I interviewed for a big auto company - their interview process involved an online coding session. They gave me a spec for an assignment and asked me to complete it in 20 minutes - I could pick Java or Python. I picked Java, and got the spec - it was ridiculously simple. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, "wr…

> better qualified candidates in the pipeline Probably the ones that read the spec and delivered what was required. If you're going to gloss over something trivial, what does that say about your attention to detail?

Alternatively, it's someone that wrote a solution, re-validated it against the spec, realized it was not fully correct, and was able to correct it within the deadline given. Hiring isn't yet a science.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#152

Post by [deleted] »

cornholio wrote: post #143
threatofrain wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might assert that what developers have is not a privilege. A privilege is something granted out of generosity or grace by another party, perhaps even undue (and hence the grace). What developers have is some "game", which makes them a "player". As soon as they lose their game, they cease to be players. Their relation to the game is exactly their value and nothing less. Tech employers are higher level players who kn…

>A privilege is something granted out of generosity or grace by another party, perhaps even undue (and hence the grace). That's quite a narrow definition. A privilege is any kind of advantage enjoyed by virtue of belonging to a group as opposed to personal merit. It's not fundamentally imoral and may well be temporary. Certainly no one has to grant someone the privilege of beauty or intelligence. In relation to other…

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#153

Post by markbnj »

iandanforth wrote: post #144

I'll take a 3-day take-home project over a whiteboard interview or live coding session any day. Working at my pace with my tools in my space? Yes please. The article makes two good points re: bias and lack of research. To the first I think it's up to us as interviewees to mention this in all of our calls. "Do you have a non-take-home option? For some groups this could be an exceptional burden." To the second there's…

Came here to say almost exactly this. I can't speak to the bias issue. I do know that spending three days doing a little chat app last time around landed me one of the best gigs I've had. The process was painless, I would have spent that time coding and refreshing skills anyway, and the project was actually fun. I also know 100% that if the company I work for encountered a candidate who needed more time to work on the project due to child care or other responsibilities that would be quickly and happily accommodated. I wouldn't invest this kind of time as a first step, obviously, and would be turned off by any company that expected me to. I undertook this project after two 30 minute conversations had convinced both parties that there was a fit, and the project was a next step.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#154

Post by pwthornton »

theptip wrote: post #140
deepGem wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Just a week or two of contract work will tell you if the candidate is a fit or not. A 30 minute phone screen will tell you if a candidate is worthy of a contract. I think companies don't do this because a. They don't want to pay and b. They don't get to gloat 'we have a super rigorous hiring process'

How many engineers would accept an offer which is conditional on "a week or two of contract work"? Most of the engineers that I've hired came from another job (not all though), and so they need a confirmed offer before they are willing to jump ship. So this practice introduces its own selection bias; you'd only be sampling from the pool of currently un-/fun-employed, and those who hate their current job enough to qui…

What we have done is hired people as contractors when we have overflow work. We'll pay you a high overly rate to do extra work for us each week. They usually already have gigs and want some extra cash. Others might be doing contract work full time. But if we really like working together, we chat about making the arrangement permanent.

But I wouldn't just do this. I think any company of any size needs a strong internship program to build their own pipeline. I also feel that you should be able to hire people without them doing contract work for you or other kinds of assignments. Talking with someone, going over code and APIs, etc. is usually good enough to gauge someone. If someone has years of experience, has stuff on Git and can talk coherently about what they are doing and why, they probably can program.

What I was saying is that if you insist on seeing code first, pay them as a contractor, don't ask them to do a bogus assignment for free.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#155

Post by pwthornton »

dmoy wrote: post #139
pwthornton wrote: post #98

If you're going to expect people to do real work, you need to pay them. This is common in a field like journalism. Want to do a one or two day trial of a reporter? Pay them to write for you! Have them work in a real environment and do real work for publication. If you're not willing to pay people for their time, and it's not an executive position, asking for days of a person's time is asinine. Also, if the homework i…

How do you try to hire people who currently have jobs with strict anti moonlighting policies? (Or maybe the answer is just don't bother, and you can afford shrinking the applicant pool without any big adverse effects)

If someone is experienced, you can talk through code and APIs and get a good sense for them.

But if you can work with someone before you hire them full-time, you'll greatly increase your hit rate. This may not always work, and it may not even work 50% of the time, but the more people you can hire that you have worked with either through internships or contract work or from previous jobs, the better.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#156

Post by learc83 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #131
deepGem wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Just a week or two of contract work will tell you if the candidate is a fit or not. A 30 minute phone screen will tell you if a candidate is worthy of a contract. I think companies don't do this because a. They don't want to pay and b. They don't get to gloat 'we have a super rigorous hiring process'

There is an additional difficulty in many cases: the law. Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them. To "hire" someone formally for a week, though, entails a lot of paperwork and has, depending on the country, legal consequences (e.g. voting rights in worker councils, minimum employment durations, right to sue for wrongful termination)... The opt…

>Most people are not contractors with an established company/legal status as contractors, so you want to hire them.

At least in the US, this isn't a problem. You just make out the check to the individual, and then send them a 1099 at the end of the year. No need to have any kind of established company/status, because by default anyone running a business without incorporating or organizing is operating a sole proprietorship--it's basically 1 extra form at tax time.

As long as the person you're paying is doing business under their name, they generally won't even need to open a second bank account (they might want to if they do this more than occasionally).

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#157

Post by lr4444lr »

danielh wrote: post #17

I don't get it. The whole industry is complaining about not being able to hire developers, yet there seems to be some kind of competition who can come up with the most awkward hiring process. Requiring homework is a great way to deter the kind of people companies should be most interested in hiring: those who are not actively looking for a new job. I find this trend especially surprising considering that the U.S. has…

Because you have to tip your hand and reveal to your former employer that you're leaving without any real guarantee from your next employer.

Until we can get useful credentialing in place, my vote is still with white-boarding, with a preliminary remote coding interview over online tools.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#158

Post by shoguning »

Work sample tests have been researched extensively in applied psychology [1]. There is a healthy debate on how effective they are.

For me personally, I am not so much for or against 'homework', as would rather see it used correctly. For example, I want to know how it will be evaluated, no tricks. I also think there is a quickly diminishing return on the length of the assignment. Up to ~10 hours may be OK, beyond that seems like a waste.

On the other hand, it's also a way to see who's serious. If you are serious about getting a job, it may take some investment. Also, the most glamorous companies can always demand a higher investment from applicants.

1. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=work...

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#159

Post by geofft »

dmoy wrote: post #139
pwthornton wrote: post #98

If you're going to expect people to do real work, you need to pay them. This is common in a field like journalism. Want to do a one or two day trial of a reporter? Pay them to write for you! Have them work in a real environment and do real work for publication. If you're not willing to pay people for their time, and it's not an executive position, asking for days of a person's time is asinine. Also, if the homework i…

How do you try to hire people who currently have jobs with strict anti moonlighting policies? (Or maybe the answer is just don't bother, and you can afford shrinking the applicant pool without any big adverse effects)

Has anyone tried offering to pay but permitting candidates to decline payment? (My current and previous jobs have these restrictions, but they also pay well enough that I care quite a bit less than I did when I was a college student / funemployed / etc.)

It seems like it's likely to work similarly to bug bounties: it's not like you stop getting security reports from people who can't accept the bounties, you just don't get the benefit of the incentive, and maybe the money gets donated to a charity of their choice instead.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#160

Post by pwthornton »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #142
deepGem wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Just a week or two of contract work will tell you if the candidate is a fit or not. A 30 minute phone screen will tell you if a candidate is worthy of a contract. I think companies don't do this because a. They don't want to pay and b. They don't get to gloat 'we have a super rigorous hiring process'

Companies don't do this because it will wildly cut down their candidate pool. There is _literally no chance_ that I am going to leave an existing job for a "week or two" contract with a company. If that's part of their hiring process, I will simply look elsewhere.

We don't do this, but we do have people work for us on a contract basis for a period of time while they still have another job. We have a lot of people who are looking for extra cash or maybe they like to just do a bunch of contract projects. But one thing can lead to another and then you decide you both want to work full time with each other.
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