The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#121

Post by dilap » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

jschwartzi wrote: post #86

dilap wrote: post #82

I worked for a company that did a 3-day, challenging take-home problem. It was a big ask, but it was amazing for getting a sense of people's problem solving and coding abilities. (The final result would only be 1000 lines of code or so, but 3 days provided time to think and experiment with different approaches.) Maybe paying people for the time if you end up saying "no" is a nice compromise? If you are potentially se…

This heavily biases your interview process to only take candidates with time to complete your homework: unmarried, childless new graduates. If you tried to give me a 3-day interview I would walk away.

It didn't seem to work out that way at the time; plenty of older people with kids were there.

Probably it helped that we were in a smallish college town w/o a ton of other tech, & this was a while ago when the tech job market wasn't as crazy hot as it is right now.

(Also, I want to emphasize, it was a challenging problem, but it wasn't a lot of code at the end of the day. If you knew what you wanted to do, you could knock it out in a couple of hours. But you had 3 days to mull it over or try different approaches. We were not asking you to build an app or something similar involving a ton of work.)

I'm sympathetic to the fact that it's a big ask, but I really truly feel like it gave me a much better sense of candidates than just an interview & a resume (what we do at the company I work at now).

It was also a fun problem to solve, and people would tend to continue to refine their solutions (to be better and faster) competitively even after they'd joined.

FWIW.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#122

Post by jlebrech » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

I had to choose on starting "homework" and accepting another job offer. I chose the job.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#123

Post by conover » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

Epenthesis wrote: post #100

0x445442 wrote: post #85

If the software development industry was the home building industry... I'm a general contractor (Unicorn Homes Inc.) and I'm currently building a number of spec homes. We're going to need electrical work done in all the homes and I'm in the process of sub-contracting out that work. What I need from you, Joe Electrician, is for you to go wire the kitchen of one of these homes. Once you're done I will inspect your work…

I've never seen a take home coding challenge that had even the possibility of being used as production code. For me it's always been a standardized, self-contained example problem. Maybe there're scummy companies that try to push job applicants' work to production, but I'd be shocked if that was anywhere close to the modal case. So it's more like "What I need from you, Joe Electrician, is for you to go wire up this d…

I agree with this sentiment. We offer candidates a choice of initial step before an onsite interview:

- A short phone interview using a collaborative editing tool like CoderPad.

- An example project they can complete independently and turn in. We've designed this project to take about 2 hours to complete.

Almost universally, candidates choose the "take home" project option.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#124

Post by EliRivers » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #88

EliRivers wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would be additional income complicating tax, and many companies restrict employees from taking on outside paid work without approval. It seems wrong to reject a good idea because other bad idea will interfere with it. Maybe I'm fortunate; I take extra irregular work in the sum of about 30 days a year, and at the end of the year HMRC and I settle up very simply and easily. I couldn't imagine taking a contract tha…

couldn't imagine taking a contract that said I couldn't do any other work It’s usually about avoiding conflicts of interest - you can generally get the box ticked easily enough to do something unrelated to your job with them. But “doing an audition at a competitor” is unlikely to be signed off! But even so - these homework assignments are stupid, and discriminatory on factors unrelated to job performance, and no othe…

Wouldn't be surprised if that was all part of it.

We want people who are desperate, people who will give up their precious free time to do our bidding, people who don't know when they're being asked to do something plainly ridiculous. We want people who will give up their vacation to try to please us. These are the people who will embrace poor working conditions and tie themselves to us through Stockholm syndrome.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#125

Post by isostatic » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #108

some_account wrote: post #89

I prefer homework to timed, monitored programming sessions. But the task should never be a big task. When i interviewed for a backend development position, the task was to set up flask with two routes, connect to a dB and retrieve a couple of rows when user visited the routes. It was not hard even though I never worked with flask before, and it wasn't supposed to be hard either. It was a test if I had basic programmi…

> timed, monitored programming sessions When I found myself out of work last year, I interviewed for a big auto company - their interview process involved an online coding session. They gave me a spec for an assignment and asked me to complete it in 20 minutes - I could pick Java or Python. I picked Java, and got the spec - it was ridiculously simple. I can't remember the exact wording, but it was something like, "wr…

> better qualified candidates in the pipeline

Probably the ones that read the spec and delivered what was required. If you're going to gloss over something trivial, what does that say about your attention to detail?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#126

Post by deepGem » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:08 PM UTC

pwthornton wrote: post #98

If you're going to expect people to do real work, you need to pay them. This is common in a field like journalism. Want to do a one or two day trial of a reporter? Pay them to write for you! Have them work in a real environment and do real work for publication. If you're not willing to pay people for their time, and it's not an executive position, asking for days of a person's time is asinine. Also, if the homework i…

Exactly. Just a week or two of contract work will tell you if the candidate is a fit or not. A 30 minute phone screen will tell you if a candidate is worthy of a contract. I think companies don't do this because a. They don't want to pay and b. They don't get to gloat 'we have a super rigorous hiring process'

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#127

Post by eksemplar » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

Grollicus wrote: post #22

I don't understand this development. In Germany, we've basically got full employment in the IT sector. Why would anyone waste their time with this? Just apply for the Job next door. As an employer, hiring someone new is always a leap of faith. Might work out, might not. If it doesn't, dont feel bad to fire people again.

In Denmark we put a job offer out on the various job banks, receive the applicants, go through them in the hiring team, starring them 1-5 and we call the best 5 candidates in for a 30-60 minute interview.

Mainly it’s just a talk to see what personality is the best fit. Sometimes we do a personality test, but only for people who will do any form of project management. We’ve never done a technical test or had anyone program for us, I know some companies do it for juniors that are fresh out of school, but otherwise it’s faily uncommon.

That’s it really.

I’ve hired around 20 developers like this over the years, none have failed me. One junior wasn’t really worth his salt at first, but he learned quickly.

When I read about these American hiring practices I wonder why anyone would want to work there. I wonder if it’s because a lot of American developers are autodidact? I mean, I’ve never interviewed someone who wasn’t educated in some form of CS, academy level and up.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#128

Post by everdev » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

As a developer and a manger, there are many candidates who fake or bolster a resume, especially in tech. Additionally, there are some developers who are incredibly smart, but take 2-3x the time as someone who is not as senior to do the same task.

The only way I've found to reliably hire is a coding test. I think it's ethically irresponsible to choose actual client work for the task. But it is important to create a test that is similar and with a time constraint, especially if you work on any projects with deadlines so you can simulate how they work under a time crunch.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#129

Post by scott_s » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #69

cornholio wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers have a similar attitude, despite currently being one of the most privileged segments of the workforce save perhaps investment bankers. We have a straightforward professional path that does not require massive debt and burning half of our youth doing academic busywork and entry level drudgery - like it happens in almost any other professional field with similar compensation. The industry requirement to prov…

I might assert that what developers have is not a privilege. A privilege is something granted out of generosity or grace by another party, perhaps even undue (and hence the grace). What developers have is some "game", which makes them a "player". As soon as they lose their game, they cease to be players. Their relation to the game is exactly their value and nothing less. Tech employers are higher level players who kn…

"Privilege" is not generally understood to be granted out of generosity or grace. The dictionary definition is "a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most" (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/privilege) which sounds like it applies to software developers when compared to the rest of the workforce. One can enjoy a privilege even if it wasn't intentionally granted by another party. And I certainly feel privileged compared to most of my friends and family members who do not work in the software world.

I agree we have a problem with age discrimination, but I can't conclude if our problem is any better or worse than the rest of the work force.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#130

Post by brandonmenc » Thu, Apr 19, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

When I first heard about this trend, I balked.

But then I realized that the occasional two days of unpaid homework is still way better than being required to have a college degree or professional certification - unlike nearly every other profession that pays over $100k.

I'll take it. For now.