Live data from Hacker News

Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

bloomberg.com

171–180 of 277 posts

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#171
From someone who builds software like this all the time, I am tired of seeing these "privacy" issues people are crying about. People want to get wifi off a FREE wifi connection and then bitch about their data being leaked, even though they ticked the box that said the wifi owner could do whatever he wanted with the data collected over his own network.

People have to learn to be responsible for their own data, use their own services and secure their own technologies and stop blaming everyone else for data they out online or ALLOW to be put online but storing it on a device that has access to the internet, we're talking mobile here.

I see people bitching about Facebook when it comes to privacy, but Facebook isn't about privacy, its exactly the opposite, its "social media" where you "share" things, not hide them. Palantir has nice solutions that not only gather data but uses sophisticated techniques to tie the data together.

If you think your constitutional rights have been violated then you need to speak up, and not on yc, and not on some nameless forum, not on your blog and not on social media. You need to take your ass down and file a lawsuit, otherwise, just sit there quietly while the big boys secure your country.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#172
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

> If the warrantless surveillance includes information such as the time and place of where you plan to commit a crime, law enforcement can stop you for a random check on the way there, giving them actual evidence for prosecution. why is that a bad thing? If the crime is victimless (such as any drug usage "crime"), then the issue isn't with the police, but with the state defining what "crime" is, and that definition d…

There was no probable cause for you to be under surveillance prior to the "random" stop.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#173
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't even thinking about public data. There's a lot of data that law enforcement already collects. What about license plate data, data from IMSI catchers, and leaked data. Add in the publicly available online data and you can supposedly build up quite a profile about them. What if somebody is arrested and happens to have a very convenient data set on a lot of people, such as data used for marketing purposes. Is i…

You bring up a good point. Palantir is not just mining public data, but also organizing data that law enforcement provides to them (like license plate readings). But if law enforcement already has that data, is the problem that Palantir organizes it, or that law enforcement collects it in the first place?

I think you may have causality reversed. Without Palantir, law enforcement would not only have no use for the data, it probably wouldn't be able to even collect it in a meaningful sense, in terms of technical and financial resources.

Palantir goes to the agency and says, "Give us data and we'll give you "actionable intelligence".

You know, back in the 90s and early 2000s, the term "data mining" was perjorative. Financial operators would look through their mass of data for correlations and sell them to people who would discover that they didn't actually work.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on exactly how Palantir is used for parellel construction?

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

You raise several good points, but a few clarifications here:

- In our software that we deploy to police departments, generally the origin of any piece of information is tracked, as well as when it was entered and by who. The intention with this is to prevent this (and other) kinds of abuse. Malicious users can still abuse the system and do a parallel construction e.g. outside of our system or maybe in a way that the two actions (finding non-admissible data and finding admissible data) seem unrelated, but at that point they would be spending quite a bit of time and criminal energy on this. I don't think this would happen commonly for a variety of practical reasons (but ultimately there's no way to completely prevent it).

Ultimately trust in the government and that law enforcement (in the various shapes and forms it comes in) is a force for good and prevents many bad things from happening every single day, is at the heart of the palantir philosophy. If you fundamentally think the government is evil, palantir would probably not be the workplace for you. But once you see all of the bad things LE can prevent thanks to our software, it becomes pretty easy to believe in, even if individual bad actors exist (and always will), like racist cops, cops that abuse their power, etc.

- If the organization is acquiring warrantless surveillance, then this generally means that there is the legislative base for them to acquire the data in the first place. What this looks like varies from country to country, some countries are much stricter with the regulations than others. So for instance in some countries it is not allowed to get information from a suspects public facebook profile, whereas in other countries this is considered A-OK. Especially in europe these things have recently become much more strict with GDPR (and similar rules that apply to government entities). You'd think that be a downside to palantir (less data = less value?) but actually it's a big business opportunity, because our software is the only thing available that is even remotely close in this space to having enough access control 'finesse' that it can enable organizations to be compliant to this law. So this is an area (and competitive advantage) we are investing a lot into -- and typically organizations go from 'completely non-compliant' when we arrive there (e.g. never even deleting data like license plates that are supposed to be deleted after 3 months etc, audit-logging any searches investigators do, limiting search scope, ...) to being fairly or even fully compliant.

Now my personal opinion is that everyone should be able to enjoy great privacy and control over their PII just like citizens of the EU do, so if you live e.g. in the US other another country where the law is lax, you should consider taking political action to change the situation.

Of course we never endorse or support any workflows that are in any way unconstitutional, and we have terminated relationships before with very big government agencies when we had doubt about whether our tools would be used for unlawful purposes.

- The "big data" thing is a bit of a misunderstanding I think -- we have "big data" tools too, but usually these are not of interest to local law enforcement. If you check out our youtube channel you will find some (atrociously old!) videos of the tool that's popular in LLE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMv3TBxulu4 for instance). This tool is in fact often used with just hand-entered information -- analysts create objects (e.g. persons, links between them) in their investigation. So the data really isn't that big and mostly hand-curated, and the tool works fine without mass data collection (better than with, perhaps). Most of what local law enforcement does with 'big data' tools is to generate reports like crime statistics.

"Police departments don't just have random chunks of data lying around containing large numbers of connections between large numbers of people" -- actually, they really do! Any police department of any size that has existed for a while will have a database with millions of convictions, suspects, court-cases etc in them. Usually on some crufty mainframe or in some crufty old SQL database that contains a lot of terribly inconsistent data (dead links, data duplication, etc.) Also sometimes some of this data is shared between countries, states etc. You can find some videos on youtube of our CEO talking about the challenges of data integration and such.

Ultimately of course there is a general statistical trend (belief?) that 'more data is better', because if there is more and more complete data, you have a bigger chance of finding that connection between e.g. a terrorist and some billionaire who might be funding said terrorists, etc. At least up until a point (at which the data probably becomes just too noisy/hard to deal with, because every individual piece of information carries very little meaning. At least the NSA seems to subscribe to this belief according to their public statements, and I'd think if anyone knows about this stuff, it's them) and assuming you have the necessary CPU power and talent (data scientists) to actually do something useful with this data. Local law enforcement orgs like police generally lack the latter. In police departments, most users are only sophisticated enough to run searches for things like names, SSN, number plates etc, really.

- We generally know a lot about how our software is used at most of our installations, and almost always actively take steps to prevent abuse (auditing etc). Most government organizations will not let us see things like what their analysts exactly searched for (because that is obviously sensitive information) but we do a lot of work to help organizations prevent abuse and insider threats at a higher level. As mentioned above, we have taken action in the past in situations where we suspected abuse. It's on a case-by-case basis, of course -- imagine if there is e.g. one analyst abusing the system, then that analyst getting fired/reprimanded would probably be sufficient action (obviously this is not in our responsibility), but if we suspect systematic abuse or we see signs of repeated abuse without repercussions, then we might pull out completely.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on exactly how Palantir is used for parellel construction?

Law enforcement uses dragnet warrantless surveillance to gather data (such as who is calling whom, who is in physical proximity with whom). That data is loaded into Palantir's software. Law enforcement uses that data to acquire admissible evidence of the perpetrators' crimes. This is the crucial step, because although the original evidence couldn't be admissible in court due to its collection without a warrant, it ca…

I wouldn't blame the tools here. When law enforcement needs something done, they'll get it done, justice be damned. Before Palantir, law enforcement would have just spot checked every single car passing through an area, under the guise of a Ride Program.

It's like billboards vs. targeted ads. Both have the same effect (pushing you to buy stuff), but the latter cuts out all the noise.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#176
post #72
post #59

This isn’t Palantir, this is the companies who buy Palantir software. The data from JPMorganChase isn’t visibile to Palantir as an organization, but to the bank. This headline is weird and as accurate as “Microsoft knows everything about you” because the bank uses SQL Server. Or “the Python developers” because python and pandas is used to link a bunch of data together. Since this is Bloomberg, I would expect them to…

Is it really the case that data does not cross boundaries among Palantir clients? And that the algorithms used by any given client are only informed by the data that client provides?

If so, then Palantir is missing a big revenue source: integration with public data that each client would otherwise have to collect on its own.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU has more people and an equivalent sized economy. The EU could stand up to the US if they felt it mattered. Other than defence partnerships the EU is no more dependent on the US than the US is on the EU. It's a two way street. Unless you think the US would be happy to walk a way from the largest single market in the world (by GDP).

Except the EU isn’t a country. Poland doesn’t have the same incentives that Greece might, as an example.

Except trade deals and regulations are negotiated/implemented top down.

So the EU has teeth if the US pushed it too far.

It's hard to get the EU to agree on a lot of things but something sufficient to make the EU consider punishing the US would likely be important enough they would agree.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#178

> Aided by as many as 120 “forward-deployed engineers” This term popping up again made me curious. To my surprise, that's not just some overloaded nickname (what's cooler than styling yourself with a military or martial arts term, right?), that's what they are actually called: https://www.palantir.com/careers/teams/forward-deployed-soft...

they fear the words "consultant" or "contractor" I think

Forward deployment had a much hipper, militaristic sound.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#179
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if libertarianism is equated with fascism then i believe we have at last reached peak fascism edit: liberatianism is by its nature less demo-cratic because it reduces the "kratos" part of democracy but it is not fascist because it is not authoritarian. anarchocapitalism is its conclusive endgame.

Anarchocapitalism is authoritarian rule by capitalists, where property is valued above all other rights.

there is no rule or authority in anarchism. ancaps advocate a voluntary society.

Re: Palantir is using War on Terror tools to track American citizens

#180
post #72
post #59

This isn’t Palantir, this is the companies who buy Palantir software. The data from JPMorganChase isn’t visibile to Palantir as an organization, but to the bank. This headline is weird and as accurate as “Microsoft knows everything about you” because the bank uses SQL Server. Or “the Python developers” because python and pandas is used to link a bunch of data together. Since this is Bloomberg, I would expect them to…

Is it really the case that data does not cross boundaries among Palantir clients? And that the algorithms used by any given client are only informed by the data that client provides?

When I worked there (mid 2009 to early 2014), almost all customers had dedicated installations (as in a rack of servers) with just their data on-site. Even the hosted instances had siloed data. There are features for peering, but AFAIK that has to be explicitly set up between installations.
Post reply on HN