Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

businessinsider.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 173 posts

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#61

Post by matte_black »

Instead of giving out money, why not give out the basic necessities directly? A free home, free utilities, free food, a basic vehicle, free clothes, free healthcare? If you’re happy with these things you’re set, if you want more you work for it and acquire money.

Seems like this would accomplish the same goals of UBI, but with less risks and impact on the economy, and at some point you can benefit from economies of scale to provide these things at even lower cost. People would not need the financial discipline and restraint that comes with managing a basic income.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#62

Post by dx034 »

smokeyj wrote: post #48
magduf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism. UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not…

Do UBI supporters intentionally not understand supply and demand? Who wants to work at a restaurant if they don’t have to? Who will lay bricks and take out the trash if they don’t have to? The idea that UBi can help people find fulfilling work leads to the question of who does the unfulfilling work.

In Europe, you already have some sort of UBI in most states. While it's often required that you actively look for a job, it isn't hard to get companies not to hire you. And yet, most people are actively looking for work. Because sitting at home all day for years is often worse than doing a menial job.

As a side note, working in a restaurant doesn't have to be a bad job. In the US it's often associated with low pay but there are a lot of people actually enjoying it (I know some).

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#63

Post by spacehome »

briandear wrote: post #27
patrickthebold wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US gives social security to nearly everyone, including people who "don't need it". This was intentional. The idea being it's harder to take away a benefit that everyone enjoys, and fairly easy to take away benefits solely for "the poor".

The US doesn’t “give” it to nearly everyone — you get a benefit as a proportion of your contribution. If you never contribute to social security, you don’t get the benefit.

It's not directly proportional. Low lifetime earners get proportionally more back than high lifetime earners. It has the effect of a wealth transfer from high earners to low earners.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#64

Post by AndrewDucker »

matte_black wrote: post #61

Instead of giving out money, why not give out the basic necessities directly? A free home, free utilities, free food, a basic vehicle, free clothes, free healthcare? If you’re happy with these things you’re set, if you want more you work for it and acquire money. Seems like this would accomplish the same goals of UBI, but with less risks and impact on the economy, and at some point you can benefit from economies of s…

Because people vary. And while you may need a slightly larger vehicle (because of family size) and are therefore willing to spend a bit less on a home, so live further out, others may make the opposite tradeoff.

UBI gives people the ability to make the tradeoffs that work for them personally, rather than being stuck in a one-size-fits-all situation.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#65

Post by Klathmon »

Siecje wrote: post #57

With UBI people say you are not discouraged from working because everyone gets the money no matter how much money they make. But where does that money come from? Once you earn enough surely they will be taxing you more than you receive per month, otherwise the system would not work.

I have really only read comments on UBI so I might be extremely wrong, but I believe the idea is that as we move toward a more "automated" life, the "1%" can make enough to pay for the 99% to have UBI. And since everyone gets the same baseline, even monumentally high tax rates would be tolerable.

This is basically a way of redistributing wealth with the added side benefit that you can quit your job without fear of losing everything in your life.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#66

Post by dwc »

hawkice wrote: post #46
alkonaut wrote: post #40

I can't see how it's theoretically possible to do a small scale experiment with UBI. If not everyone gets it, you can't see the big impact on the economy (what happens with supply/demand/inflation). And if it's with a short horizon, then people still have to plan for life after the UBI experiment. You can't give up the career you are going to need to make a living in 2 years time, just because you get paid a small su…

I am very skeptical of claims that outcomes are discontinuous in policy space. Going one step in direction A should give you information about going further in that same direction, at least on some scale of change. Clearly the people running the experiment agreed, because they designed it with the intent to get that information.

I imagine that researchers designed the experiment they thought would be accepted rather than the experiment they wanted. Yes, they intended to learn some things and most likely did.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#68

Post by matte_black »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #64
matte_black wrote: post #61

Instead of giving out money, why not give out the basic necessities directly? A free home, free utilities, free food, a basic vehicle, free clothes, free healthcare? If you’re happy with these things you’re set, if you want more you work for it and acquire money. Seems like this would accomplish the same goals of UBI, but with less risks and impact on the economy, and at some point you can benefit from economies of s…

Because people vary. And while you may need a slightly larger vehicle (because of family size) and are therefore willing to spend a bit less on a home, so live further out, others may make the opposite tradeoff. UBI gives people the ability to make the tradeoffs that work for them personally, rather than being stuck in a one-size-fits-all situation.

You do not need UBI for that, you just need a few more options or packages for people to choose from, which would be trivial to provide.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#69

Post by praha14 »

rc_hadoken wrote: post #33
magduf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism. UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not…

Some people have no conception of crappy. I do get your point.

I live in a van where my total expenses amount to $100/month; I quit my job the day I had accumulated enough savings to sustain this lifestyle indefinitely.

The amount of money that is worth giving up 5/7ths of your life is somewhere in the tens of millions.

Re: Finland is scrapping plans to extend its basic income project

#70

Post by VMG »

alkonaut wrote: post #40

I can't see how it's theoretically possible to do a small scale experiment with UBI. If not everyone gets it, you can't see the big impact on the economy (what happens with supply/demand/inflation). And if it's with a short horizon, then people still have to plan for life after the UBI experiment. You can't give up the career you are going to need to make a living in 2 years time, just because you get paid a small su…

Sounds reminiscent of "Socialism doesn't work if not applied globally".
Post reply on HN