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Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

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Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#31

Post by mbreese »

hyperbovine wrote: post #16
yock wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Oracle's two recent actions against open source projects, I'd suspect this is yet another move to minimize the amount of open source software under its control.

Erm... maximize?

More like remove... it seems like they are trying to shed away the open source parts of projects where they think they can still extract a profit. I don't think Oracle wants to shepherd any major open source projects and the investment that entails. They would rather move Solaris and Java back to the realm of closed-source and proprietary. Hopefully in the case of Java, still keeping it close to free as in beer.

They know that the open source community won't be able to seriously fork Java/OpenJDK. Even with newer JVM languages, Java's place has been cemented in enterprise environments. And if it is one thing Oracle knows, it is how to sell to the enterprise.

I'm not sure that I would do much differently if I were them either. Open source just doesn't seem to be in their DNA, and it's been quite successful for them. Even if it is to the detriment of others...

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#32

Post by jjs_ »

ouhjygj wrote: post #26

So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT

http://www.ikvm.net/ ??

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#33

Post by 10ren »

Tautologistics wrote: post #7
radu_floricica wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if they chose one of them as base and incrementally improve it with code taken from the other. Easier to test and stable at every point.

It is likely that some of each VMs design decisions are so fundamental that it precludes an incremental migration of pieces from one to the other.

Oracle is a pragmatic company. It's likely they'll just merge the easy stuff.

If there is insanely great stuff in the intersection you mention, it probably constitutes a research project, which it would make sense to undertake in the background (if at all). For Oracle, the only "insanely great" that counts is that which yields benefits that customers will pay for now/soon - not what's technically impressive. They're a sort of microsoft-research anti-particle. disclaimer I actually have no idea.

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#34

Post by lukev »

lmz wrote: post #30
lukev wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but one of the JVMs selling points is that it's attractive to both open-source hackers and heavyweight commercial users. If you fork it, then you're in essence splitting these user bases, to the great detriment of both.

What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either…

But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free.

I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences for the JDK.

Unless something happens, I'd be VERY surprised if the "standard" JVM is still "free to use", let alone open source, in 5 years.

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#35

Post by jim_dot »

jjs_ wrote: post #32
ouhjygj wrote: post #26

So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT

http://www.ikvm.net/ ??

It's VMs all the way down!

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#36

Post by trurl »

ouhjygj wrote: post #26

So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT

You mean like

http://www.ikvm.net/

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#37

Post by lmz »

lukev wrote: post #34
lmz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either…

But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free. I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences…

That might be possible (free desktop edition, limited to 2 cores and 8GB RAM?), but I can't honestly blame Oracle for wanting to make money out of Java. Sun had the COBOL of the 21st century and still failed to make much money out of it. Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake.

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#38

Post by rbanffy »

lmz wrote: post #37
lukev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free. I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences…

That might be possible (free desktop edition, limited to 2 cores and 8GB RAM?), but I can't honestly blame Oracle for wanting to make money out of Java. Sun had the COBOL of the 21st century and still failed to make much money out of it. Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake.

> Oracle isn't going to make the same mistake.

And will probably kill Java in the process.

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#39

Post by rbanffy »

lukev wrote: post #34
lmz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does (did?) OpenJDK give the open-source hackers anyway? A freely distributable Java to go along with your Linux distribution? I doubt the JIT part is accessible to many developers - and those who want to adapt the JIT (= mobile hardware vendors, at this stage) could always strike a licensing deal with Oracle. There are already plenty of interpreted VM implementations, so it's not the general lack of a VM either…

But that's just the problem... If Oracle makes the "standard" JVM entirely proprietary, then they are under no obligation to provide it for free. I'm sure they'll always provide a free version for desktop users, in the interests of having a wide install base. But given the pricing schemes for other Oracle products, I fully expect you'd start seeing things like per-CPU licensing for enterprises, and developer licences…

> Unless something happens, I'd be VERY surprised if the "standard" JVM is still "free to use", let alone open source, in 5 years.

Or relevant

Re: Oracle set to merge Java virtual machines

#40

Post by [deleted] »

jjs_ wrote: post #32
ouhjygj wrote: post #26

So what would happen if a large company in Redmond hired/contracted a bunch of ex-Sun engineers to make a java->.Net compiler so all this stuff ran on the CLR As Oracle makes it harder and harder to use the JVM people are forced into the waiting arms of MSFT

http://www.ikvm.net/ ??

[deleted]
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