California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#31

Post by jonny_eh » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

soheil wrote: post #27

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

"Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning…

Are you trying to point out that Occam's Razor is flawed?

Occam's Razor would tell you that evolution (which has over a century of evidence) is more likely than a designer god (which is lacking in evidence).

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#32

Post by kyrra » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

chalkandpaste wrote: post #16

THIS IS FANTASTIC. I’ve had a friend, a specialist engineer doing failure analysis, who has been largely incapacitated from any work because of Tesla. He sustained an injury during a high urgency project (which failed, whodathunk) which required him to work 16 hour days for a few months. During the course of this, he sustained injuries to arms and legs due to machinery issues (the machinery at Tesla often has workers…

If your friend already pursued legal avenues with no results, it may be worth having them reach out to news companies to see if he can get some attention (especially in-light of California starting this investigation). Bad press with case-study sort of issues is always a great way to get things fixed.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#33

Post by ucaetano » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

soheil wrote: post #27

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

"Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning…

Translation:

"Things in the universe happen for no greater reason at all, they just happen according to a small and simple set of laws that describe the behavior of matter-energy and space-time"

vs.

"There's a being, which is conscious, all-knowing and all-powerful, sitting somewhere, or actually nowhere, that uses its power to set things in motion or not, depending on its mood, and how it likes some people, but by no means follows a steady logic, and also isn't detectable by any means whatsoever and there is absolutely no evidence of its existence, but it exists and has impact on the universe, even if such impact can never be measured or even detected"

Now use Occam's Razor?

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#34

Post by jonny_eh » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

mmsimanga wrote: post #19

rdiddly wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everybody hates you, you are NOT doing something right. If everybody loves you, then you're doing it right, and in fact you barely even have to do anything because everybody's helping you.

In this day and age it more like if you are doing anything of significance you will have people who hate you.

Or it means nothing, it just means you're doing something, good or bad.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#35

Post by jonny_eh » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

craftyguy wrote: post #14

throwahey wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems to me that if you are pissing off everyone, you’re doing something right. I'm curious, does that also apply to the POTUS?

There are always exceptions

False dictums have a lot of exceptions.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#36

Post by kitsunesoba » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

api wrote: post #23

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

They're both likely true. Unions, conventional automobile companies, and the oil industry are all terrified of electric cars. EVs mean less jobs, less parts, longer renewal cycles, and of course removing inflexibility from oil demand. EVs threaten industries collectively totaling trillions of dollars and in some cases even double digit percentages of nations' GDPs. It's absurd and naive to think these industries woul…

Yes, I’m seeing a lot of assumptions that unions are purely (or at least mostly) forces of good, but that’s not necessarily true. Auto workers’ unions in particular have a reputation of being bullies, extortionists, and sometimes obstructionists. Unionization of Tesla may improve conditions for the workers (though it’s worth noting that many auto union member companies still have serious unaddressed issues) but it’d also likely slow the company to a crawl and rob it of much of its agility.

I think that Tesla’s worker treatment problems should absolutely be addressed but I wouldn’t be so sure that unions are the answer.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#37

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #25

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

I'm actually willing to give Tesla credit here precisely for that reason -- not because unions are bad (many industries need it, auto included), but because UAW in my possibly-misinformed mind has been at least indirectly the cause of a decline in build quality in American cars.

The journalists refute what Tesla is saying in their ongoing AMA:

Hi there, we did this reporting completely independently of the union.

This is another instance of deceptive Tesla wording, when Tesla says:

working directly with union supporters

what they mean is that some of the workers Reveal interviewed were in the union. Of course some of the interviewees weren't tied to the union but those go unmentioned.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#38

Post by tntn » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

rdiddly wrote: post #13

briandear wrote: post #5

Elon Musk is the Preston Tucker of our time — seems to get hammered from all sides while trying to break the status quo. I have no information to comment on the validity of any allegations, but it seems like Musk is continually under attack. I was a moderate Musk fan before, but now I am really hoping for his success. It seems to me that if you are pissing off everyone, you’re doing something right. I highly recommen…

If everybody hates you, you are NOT doing something right. If everybody loves you, then you're doing it right, and in fact you barely even have to do anything because everybody's helping you.

Listen up, kids! Always do what everyone else is doing, never make anyone mad, always choose the popular path.

/s

It seems like everything worth doing nowadays results in someone hating you.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#39

Post by api » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #33

soheil wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows. There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning…

Translation: "Things in the universe happen for no greater reason at all, they just happen according to a small and simple set of laws that describe the behavior of matter-energy and space-time" vs. "There's a being, which is conscious, all-knowing and all-powerful, sitting somewhere, or actually nowhere, that uses its power to set things in motion or not, depending on its mood, and how it likes some people, but by n…

You've shown that it is possible to shorten or lengthen sentences by picking less or more applicable or "conceptually dense" words. Example: "the wall is black" vs "the wall absorbs a significant fraction of the visible light spectrum."

God in some form is indeed a simpler and more straightforward concept than evolution, especially when you consider the whole of evolutionary theory beyond Darwin. It's a very deep and complex subject.

Ockham's razor is not "the simplest idea is true." It's "In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one." Ockham's razor is probably related to thermodynamics since more complex explanations imply more complex structures. Extremely complex structures and thus explanations do exist, but they're less likely.

In the case of Tesla there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that they're currently the target of a massive negative PR campaign. I am not necessarily defending them if they have in fact treated employees badly, and both things could be true as I said elsewhere.

Re: California Opens Investigation into Tesla Workplace Conditions

#40

Post by hangonhn » Wed, Apr 18, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

eganist wrote: post #25

rdiddly wrote: post #18

"...an ideologically motivated attack by an extremist organization working directly with union supporters to create a calculated disinformation campaign against Tesla" vs. "...Tesla failed to report serious injuries on legally mandated reports to make its numbers appear better than they actually were." Now use Occam's Razor.

I'm actually willing to give Tesla credit here precisely for that reason -- not because unions are bad (many industries need it, auto included), but because UAW in my possibly-misinformed mind has been at least indirectly the cause of a decline in build quality in American cars.

Why do people think that? A lot of cars are poor quality by design and choice of material. I drive German cars and there are certain choices in design and material don't stand up to time. I understand why those choices were made (70% of luxury cars are leased and aren't expected to be owned past 5 years). From an engineering point of view, the cars were optimized for a certain "fitness function". I imagine American cars were designed to optimize for certain constraints too. I also know that a large number of Japanese brand cars are in fact built in the US by American auto workers. And their quality and reliability are as high as those built in Japan.

The view you espoused is fairly common but I don't understand why UAW would lead to poor quality cars when cars are designed and built using standardized procedures with machines that perform the same each time (not a rhetorical question, I really don't understand where this view comes from)