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ClojureScript beginners' home page

clojure-script.org

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Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#41

I could not get leiningen to install under Win10 a week ago, was quite a sobering experience. Some site that was linked to download from got a 404, then I got directed towards some bat script, which complained about HTTPS certification issues (lol)? Took less than 5 minutes under a linux server though, so thats something, I guess. But still, its kinda mind-blowing how much Win users are ignored.

I saw David adding commands that Windows users need in the docs. Personally I don't like treating Windows users like how I treated Linux/macOS users. You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own. Post your question to http://clojureverse.org/ see if others can help.

"You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own."

I don't understand this adversial positioning.

If most open source software treats windows as a first class citizen among supported platforms then surely the project that does not follow this suit is the odd man out .. not the users who use windows as their computational substrate.

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#42
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you may need this one https://www.reddit.com/r/Clojure/comments/8anepx/a_fake_home... The main purpose of this page is trying to make new developers come to ClojureScript feel better by providing informations. People in Clojure community already knew it so I don't have to emphasis that my side is unofficial again. Plus I added a link at the corner. Still thanks for putting down you impressions. But I thought ab…

People in the Clojure community might know that your site is not the official one, but people new to Clojure(script) might not! I actually thought it was the official website first time I visited the page. (The "Back to official" link is not clear enough) I agree with the improvements that were suggested. (different logo or putting unofficial in the title)

> ClojureScript(Unofficial)

Fine... Updated.

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#43
post #31

I could not get leiningen to install under Win10 a week ago, was quite a sobering experience. Some site that was linked to download from got a 404, then I got directed towards some bat script, which complained about HTTPS certification issues (lol)? Took less than 5 minutes under a linux server though, so thats something, I guess. But still, its kinda mind-blowing how much Win users are ignored.

I have this exact same problem! Did you resolve it under windows? I tried changing the .bat file as suggested and manually putting the zip in a folder, still no luck.

I could not, I just went to the AWS solution instead. Maybe someone solved this and posts it here :D

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#44
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw David adding commands that Windows users need in the docs. Personally I don't like treating Windows users like how I treated Linux/macOS users. You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own. Post your question to http://clojureverse.org/ see if others can help.

"You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own." I don't understand this adversial positioning. If most open source software treats windows as a first class citizen among supported platforms then surely the project that does not follow this suit is the odd man out .. not the users who use windows as their computational substrate.

Feeling difficult to understand your reply as a non-English developer. Anyway it's my personal opinion and I'm not official ClojureScript maintainer. The lead maintainer do care about Windows users.

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of thinking is not helpful in maximizing adoption for any technology, period.

Lead developer of ClojureScript here. Agreed, we take Windows support quite seriously.

Well, then I can only say this: ClojureScript is "competing" for developer attention with Purescript, Bucklescript, and lately, ReasonML.

Ease of installation on windows is one factor that will matter to many users.

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#46
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this exact same problem! Did you resolve it under windows? I tried changing the .bat file as suggested and manually putting the zip in a folder, still no luck.

I could not, I just went to the AWS solution instead. Maybe someone solved this and posts it here :D

Well, at least now I don't feel like such a moron. It's good to know someone else had the same issue I did!

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#47

I could not get leiningen to install under Win10 a week ago, was quite a sobering experience. Some site that was linked to download from got a 404, then I got directed towards some bat script, which complained about HTTPS certification issues (lol)? Took less than 5 minutes under a linux server though, so thats something, I guess. But still, its kinda mind-blowing how much Win users are ignored.

I saw David adding commands that Windows users need in the docs. Personally I don't like treating Windows users like how I treated Linux/macOS users. You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own. Post your question to http://clojureverse.org/ see if others can help.

> Personally I don't like treating Windows users like how I treated Linux/macOS users. You chose Windows, you chose the hard way, you have to figure it out on you own.

I dunno if you're trolling here (and if so, well done), but this attitude really gets under my skin. Excuse me for ranting at you, but I need to get this off my chest.

I think that this attitude is harmful to open source projects, and to projects of all kinds. In my experience, the people who use Windows usually haven't 'chosen' Windows; that decision was made for them by bureaucracy or money or time.

I go to a state university in a metro area, and roughly 90% of the people in my CS program use Windows. These kids have part-time jobs and families who need them. They commute over an hour each way to get to school, because they can't afford rent in the city. They don't have the cash to drop on a Mac. A lot of them are still on their first laptop, which they got back in high school, chosen for them by well-meaning parents with no clue about arcana like driver compatibility. It's probably got a smallish HDD, or a tiny SSD, barely enough space for a VM and Visual Studio (which, by the way, a mandatory class requires). This laptop is their primary and only computer, and it runs Windows. Maybe it'd run Linux too, if you didn't mess up the install. You wanna toss those dice with your only tool for getting your homework done on time?

And the intrepid few who do slap Linux on their computer pay for it, with their time. Every single Linux User Group meeting we have someone who comes in asking how to set up their laptop with the school wifi. These are smart people, often with graduate degrees, who struggle with wpa-supplicant et al; and we aren't even talking Arch here, just as many issues come up with Ubuntu. Windows Just Works (TM), in a way that Linux doesn't, and probably never will (and even really probably shouldn't). Linux may be free as in freedom, but it's not free as in beer, not if time is money.

So this is just one subset of the people you're targeting when you support the 82% [0] of computer users who use Windows. And I understand completely that Windows is a deeply unfun system to support. But supporting Windows is going to open up all kinds of contributors from nontraditional backgrounds to your project. Studies show that diverse teams are more creative [1] and, in a business context, more profitable [2]. (Side note: looking at that Wikipedia page, maybe it's time to support a first-class IDE for Android?)

These are the users you most desperately want to attract to your project, the ones who think differently than you do, who come from different backgrounds and whose ideas are shaped by different experiences than you. There are all kinds of initiatives going on right now (LLVM, for example [3]) to attract a more diverse open source developer base, and I think that's great. Supporting Windows is one more way to achieve that.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...

[1] https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/diversity-work-group-p...

[2] https://www.credit-suisse.com/corporate/en/media/news/articl...

[3] http://blog.llvm.org/2018/03/international-womens-day-celebr...

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#48

I've been learning Clojure and ClojureScript in my spare time. I can honestly say that one thing that would make adoption a lot more wide-spread is a better way to include NPM modules in the project. I know that there is a new feature for it, but the documentation was a little cryptic. Ended up just adding some CLJSJS dependencies to my project and giving up on using the NPM module I _really_ wanted to use. In the en…

Work on this is still ongoing. Clojurescript had to upstream a lot of module-handling code into Google Closure to get it going, and older, non-Node/ES6 module libs will never work under advanced-mode compilation (e.g., polyfills).

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of thinking is not helpful in maximizing adoption for any technology, period.

Lead developer of ClojureScript here. Agreed, we take Windows support quite seriously.

David, I think the Clojurescript Quick Start guide (https://clojurescript.org/guides/quick-start) is a wasted opportunity. I don't think new users want to wade through a page full of compiler flags when Leiningen + template is the default for most of the Clojure(script) community. This merely adds to the impression that Clojure(script) is for experts.

Re: ClojureScript beginners' home page

#50

I could not get leiningen to install under Win10 a week ago, was quite a sobering experience. Some site that was linked to download from got a 404, then I got directed towards some bat script, which complained about HTTPS certification issues (lol)? Took less than 5 minutes under a linux server though, so thats something, I guess. But still, its kinda mind-blowing how much Win users are ignored.

i really don't see the point of developing anything java-related on windows. then again, I'm probably just being oblivious.

Fine if you have the option. I shared a house with a Java developer for a corporate bank and he didn't have the choice. His laptop had to be able to log into the corporate intranet and serve as his sole development environment. There are millions of Java developers using Windows so what's your point?
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