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The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

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Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#221
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would not have acquired much notoriety by believing these things in private. It's their actions which got them into the history books. If I'm not mistaken, the Brahmins tick most of your boxes. Are they alright? Some would argue that they go in for a bit of dehumanization... but nobody is proposing a world war to stop them. Actually I'm alright with people believing lots of crazy shit, in private. Because I thin…

Well, I don't know, the Indian government seems to think caste discrimination is a real problem (c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India ). I certainly would object quite strenuously to a government that operated on caste principles and enforced caste segregation and diminished rights for some castes. World War II did not begin because of Nazis' views on Jews, so I don't know that that part of the que…

Sure, me too. But we're back to talking about policies and actions, like invading Poland or enforcing caste apartheid. These are bad things.

My objection is to conflating them with scientific matters, i.e. empirical claims, especially about human biology. I worry that doing so actually weakens our arguments against such evil. We shouldn't build into our case against them scientific claims on which we may ourselves be proven wrong. It's not necessary.

(And, much as I enjoy using words like diversity in their older meanings, in the hope of tripping people into thinking, here I resisted the temptation. Intellectual monoculture was however a feature of most of the evil regimes of recent times, too, and one of their weaknesses.)

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#222
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be helpful if you would name specific examples where you think they were wrong. I mean wrong on empirical questions, not morally wrong. Just stating that all of soft science is dodgy doesn't really distinguish us from them, does it? We do a lot of soft science!

Why would that be helpful? The problem is obvious because of the complexity of the variables and problems measuring them. There might be some problem studies cited in the link below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis The point is that some research is weaker than others, and the reasons why haven't changed since WW2, so if it's a problem now, then it was a problem then.

Well OK, sorry maybe I mixed up your point of view.

Soft science has many questions to which we'd love to have solid answers. So (perhaps unfortunately) it's not going away, and I think we need to get better at sorting out what it tells us.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good catch thanks! Wikipedia says "The National Association of Scholars (NAS) is an American non-profit politically conservative advocacy group, with a particular interest in education" Thanks for the link to the PNAS -- looks like a whole special issue, not just an article, in fact. Great. I'm gonna ignore the fake-NAS one, and read the real-PNAS one. I wonder what National Association of Scholars' motivation is her…

Isn't the entire purpose of reproducability is to eliminate such questions from discussions about science?

The purpose of reproducibility is to be able to properly analyze the quality and accuracy of a study. The purpose is to support critical thinking and objective facts.

However, this paper isn't a study. It's just an essay. And while, yes, the paper in question does highlight numerous issues in reasonable and rational ways, it also uses this as the breakout quote on page 36:

> Scientists readily accept results that confirm liberal political arguments, and frequently reject contrary results out of hand.

Now, there's a couple problems with this statement. The most obvious is that it implies blame on liberal politics. On the same page they detail that the percentage of self-identified liberal psychologists at a conference (~800 of 1,000) wildly outnumbers the number of self-identified conservative psychologists at the same conference (3 of 1,000). Well, this conference is the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, which is based in southern California. Would that bias attendance? However, even if we assume that distribution is correct, the quoted statement doesn't say anything about the conservative scientists. Would it also be correct that conservative scientists readily accept results that confirm their political arguments? We don't know. Maybe it would be more correct to say this:

> Scientists readily accept results that confirm pre-existing personal political arguments, and frequently reject contrary results out of hand.

Instead, this paper chooses to imply that scientists who are more liberal are somehow inherently more biased. If we assert that good scientists are those who don't allow political arguments to influence their acceptance of their results, then the natural conclusion to draw from that is that being liberal is incompatible with being a good scientist.

Don't get me wrong, this paper makes a lot of legitimately good points with good examples, but the whole section on groupthink comes across a little bit biased itself. However, it's existence means I can't shake the feeling that maybe I'm missing something.

So having show that there's a reproducibility problem, the paper concludes. Then very end of the paper, the afterword lists these points introduced seemingly out of the blue:

> Symptoms of Pathological Science:

> 1. The maximum effect that is observed is produced by a causative agent of barely detectable intensity, and the magnitude of the effect is substantially independent of the intensity of the cause.

> 2. The effect is of a magnitude that remains close to the limit of detectability; or, many measurements are necessary because of the very low statistical significance of the results.

> 3. Claims of great accuracy.

> 4. Fantastic theories contrary to experience.

> 5. Criticisms are met by ad hoc excuses thought up on the spur of the moment.

> 6. Ratio of supporters to critics rises up to somewhere near 50% and then falls gradually to oblivion.

These are from Irving Langmuir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Langmuir) and his criticisms on research conducted with unconscious biases or subjective elements. He meant it as a criticism of research like cold fusion.

Now, there's not any real one-for-one discussion of these items or how they relate to what came before. They're just presented basically as-is as the final portion of the essay with few notes that they correlate to what came before. You'll notice, however, they they all call into question the credibility of the scientist as well as the credibility of the scientific community, and not the quality of their research or data.

However, let's say you're politically conservative, and you're reading this essay. Maybe you don't believe in climate change. You get to the end of this paper, and it tells you that in spite of the claims of accuracy of the data, in spite of the consensus of the community, in spite of all the evidence, if it's contrary to [your] experience or if the defenses to criticism feel invented on the spot or if you keep hearing claims that support is waning, and apparently especially if it's liberal, then you've found a legitimate case of bad science.

I don't think that's necessarily the point they're trying to make here, but I really don't like the way this afterword is presented. It's introducing new concepts and arguments and then handwaves away having to justify them or explain their relevance.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#224
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marx!? Marx can teach us very little about economics and almost nothing about science. Science is NOT “a relationship between capital and labor”. If you see everything through a such a strong lens, you see very little.

Please don't take HN threads on generic ideological tangents, which never lead anywhere new. I know the GP pointed there, but that's no reason to follow the pointer. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Fair enough but I was reacting to the clearly idealogical. To suggest Marx has something to add in this issue is both provocative and ridiculous. To entertain drivel this degrades HN.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#225
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Any sociology/economic/psychology research should be taken with a grain of salt. So how is that not an example of "science going wrong"? Unless you are proposing that science is right by definition, or that governments should ignore most of the branches of science that are actually relevant to government. There are plenty of branches of physics that are at least as speculative as sociology, economics and psychology…

It's not going wrong, unless it's making conclusive statements that are beyond the strengths of the study. That's why I say grain of salt. I understand what you're saying, but my point is that it's not science or the scientific method that results in undesirable outcomes, such as the Nazi example, but just a lack of any other good option. Governments (and people) should evaluate the merits of the information they rec…

>Properly conducted and repeated experiments with noted mechanisms of actions (e.g. vaccines)

This is a good example of why it's not so simple as you're making out. Earlier, you put biology on your list of unreliable branches of science, and you claimed that you could know that the racial science of the 30s wasn't "real science" simply because it consisted of "studies about people". But vaccine science falls into both those categories!

In reality you're deciding whether or not any given branch of science is methodologically sound not by examining any actual studies in the relevant disciplines, but simply on the assumption that any study which has arrived at the "wrong" conclusion must have had a bad methodology.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#226
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The end-product of science is not truth, it is explanations of observations. That sounds a whole lot like truth to me, or at least, like any sane construal of truth.

That depends on what you mean by "truth". Newtonian mechanics says that gravity is pulling you down towards the surface of the earth. Is that "true"? It has tremendous explanatory power, but I would argue that it is not actually true. The truth is (as far as we can tell at the moment) that the surface of the earth is pushing you up and accelerating you through curved space-time.

> The truth is (as far as we can tell at the moment) that the surface of the earth is pushing you up and accelerating you through curved space-time.

Until this moment, I never suspected how insightful the following is:

https://wiki.tfes.org/Universal_Acceleration

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#227
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't know, the Indian government seems to think caste discrimination is a real problem (c.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India ). I certainly would object quite strenuously to a government that operated on caste principles and enforced caste segregation and diminished rights for some castes. World War II did not begin because of Nazis' views on Jews, so I don't know that that part of the que…

Sure, me too. But we're back to talking about policies and actions, like invading Poland or enforcing caste apartheid. These are bad things. My objection is to conflating them with scientific matters, i.e. empirical claims, especially about human biology. I worry that doing so actually weakens our arguments against such evil. We shouldn't build into our case against them scientific claims on which we may ourselves be…

I don't see much point in making the distinction. All of these policies you're saying are bad are completely logical ones to enact for someone who holds race-supremacist views.

By way of analogy, when someone tells you he believes global warming is impossible because it would go against the Bible, you don't have to wonder that much what he would do about carbon emissions.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#228
post #216
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, I read you as saying that "1 out of every 20 statistical tests in every journal is guaranteed to be wrong. It's just stats, people." If what you mean to say is that "1 out of every 20 statistical tests of a false finding will demonstrate a 'significant' p-value and may subsequently get published," then we're in agreement.

I meant to say what I said. Getting a significant p-value when in fact there is no effect is a wrong result, hence, at a minimum, 1 in 20 results (on average) in a journal that uses a p-value threshold of 0.05 will be wrong.

Then that is incorrect. The situation is simultaneously better and worse than your interpretation:

    > while a low P value indicates that your data are unlikely
    > assuming a true null, it can’t evaluate which of two
    > competing cases is more likely:
    >   * The null is true but your sample was unusual.
    >   * The null is false.
You're conflating the two populations, and indeed we don't know which is which. But the P-value is only talking about the likelihood of observing your data given a true null. It only has any effect on that first population. Without knowing the size of the second population, you cannot say anything about the fraction of erroneous results in a journal based upon the statistical test alone.

http://blog.minitab.com/blog/adventures-in-statistics-2/how-...

At the same time, though, converting p-values to a bayesian posterior or conditional probability that says something about the likelihood of the _hypothesis_ (like you're trying to do) is hard and generally way more pessimistic than 1 in 20 — it's more like 1 in 3.

http://www.dcscience.net/Sellke-Bayarri-Berger-calibration-o...

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#229
post #228
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant to say what I said. Getting a significant p-value when in fact there is no effect is a wrong result, hence, at a minimum, 1 in 20 results (on average) in a journal that uses a p-value threshold of 0.05 will be wrong.

Then that is incorrect. The situation is simultaneously better and worse than your interpretation: > while a low P value indicates that your data are unlikely > assuming a true null, it can’t evaluate which of two > competing cases is more likely: > * The null is true but your sample was unusual. > * The null is false. You're conflating the two populations, and indeed we don't know which is which. But the P-value is…

> it can’t evaluate which of two competing cases is more likely

Of course it can. In fact, it can tell you exactly how much more likely one case is versus the other. P=0.05 means that there is a 5% chance that the null is true and hence a 95% chance the the null is false.

> says something about the likelihood of the _hypothesis_ (like you're trying to do)

No. I am simply saying that there is a lower bound on the rate of false positives caused by the choice of the threshold p value. If you chose P<=0.05 then you will have an error rate of at least 5%. The actual error rate is almost certainly higher (that's what "lower bound" means) for a host of other reasons.

Re: The Irreproducibility Crisis of Modern Science

#230
post #229
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then that is incorrect. The situation is simultaneously better and worse than your interpretation: > while a low P value indicates that your data are unlikely > assuming a true null, it can’t evaluate which of two > competing cases is more likely: > * The null is true but your sample was unusual. > * The null is false. You're conflating the two populations, and indeed we don't know which is which. But the P-value is…

> it can’t evaluate which of two competing cases is more likely Of course it can. In fact, it can tell you exactly how much more likely one case is versus the other. P=0.05 means that there is a 5% chance that the null is true and hence a 95% chance the the null is false. > says something about the likelihood of the _hypothesis_ (like you're trying to do) No. I am simply saying that there is a lower bound on the rate…

Were I to run 100 independently designed experiments that all tested real effects, my choice of p-value does not determine the number that erroneously find no result. If the effect is small and I didn't gather enough data, a p-value of 0.05 could result in only a handful of experiments accurately reflecting reality. Let's say 30 make the cut.

Were I to run another 100 independently designed experiments that all tested big real effects, then a p-value of 0.05 could result in all 100 accurately reflecting reality.

Were I to run 100 independently designed experiments that all tested false effects, then at a p-value level of 0.05, I should see about 5 erroneously significant results.

Now I submit all these significant results to a journal and they all get published. Of the 135 results, only 5 are coming to the wrong conclusion.

Look at that, an error rate lower than your lower bound. We simply don't know the sizes of these populations. It could be better or worse than my example, and it could be better or worse than 5%. There simply is no lower bound.

Of course you're right that there is a problem here but there isn't a lower bound guaranteed by the stats tests. Quite a bit of the problem stems from misinterpretations of p-values. For someone who likes to condescendingly explain concepts, you might want to make sure you have the harder concept down before assuming others don't understand "ratios" and "lower bounds." At this point you're arguing against the sources I cited. You should check them out. :)

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