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Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

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Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#141

Post by kup0 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #96
MichaelGG wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent review, thank you. You capture the vividness of it very well. I will add a disclaimer, if you are talking about Goekna / Dhamma.org retreats. They are absolutely not just about technique or dogma-free, despite their marketing. They are overtly religious and the entire retreat is couched in hand-wavy woo. The retreat itself was amazing. I went to one in Quebec. Excellent facilities, crystal clear skies (it w…

Thank you. Your experiences seem to mirror my own, I was very disappointed when I learned that the vipassana course was full of woo-woo, despite proclaiming not to be. In addition, it kind of messed me up for quite a while afterwards, so I could not recommend it, despite finding some of the sensations I experienced during the course to be interesting. There are almost certainly going to be meditation retreats that te…

I think that's sort of a mis-characterization of Metta (not accusing you of ill intent, to be clear), but I'm not sure how it's taught by Goenka, maybe it was demonstrated poorly.

In my experience, it has been to try to wish good things towards all beings (the cessation of suffering that is essential to Buddhist philsophy), from those that are easy to love (family friends, etc) all the way out to those that are the most difficult to wish good things for (those that wrong you, prisoners, generally those we view as "less"), and its intent is not like a prayer, where you're trying to ask a deity to make it happen.

It's more like Anapana/Vipassana in that it is a self-work- trying to find more compassion, trying to cultivate that towards all beings and overcome the difficulty and roadblocks that keep us from doing so. I have found Metta at times to be more profound than the rest of the practices, or at least unique. It's maybe the one practice that has made me question my stance on eating meat and has helped re-align my thoughts regarding treating "the least of these" with compassion instead of retribution, negligence, etc.

I think it can be useful without any woo-woo aspects, and I've seen it taught in practical terms multiple times.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#142

Post by ZenoArrow »

kup0 wrote: post #141
ZenoArrow wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. Your experiences seem to mirror my own, I was very disappointed when I learned that the vipassana course was full of woo-woo, despite proclaiming not to be. In addition, it kind of messed me up for quite a while afterwards, so I could not recommend it, despite finding some of the sensations I experienced during the course to be interesting. There are almost certainly going to be meditation retreats that te…

I think that's sort of a mis-characterization of Metta (not accusing you of ill intent, to be clear), but I'm not sure how it's taught by Goenka, maybe it was demonstrated poorly. In my experience, it has been to try to wish good things towards all beings (the cessation of suffering that is essential to Buddhist philsophy), from those that are easy to love (family friends, etc) all the way out to those that are the m…

> "I think that's sort of a mis-characterization of Metta (not accusing you of ill intent, to be clear), but I'm not sure how it's taught by Goenka, maybe it was demonstrated poorly.

In my experience, it has been to try to wish good things towards all beings (the cessation of suffering that is essential to Buddhist philsophy), from those that are easy to love (family friends, etc) all the way out to those that are the most difficult to wish good things for (those that wrong you, prisoners, generally those we view as "less"), and its intent is not like a prayer, where you're trying to ask a deity to make it happen."

I believe Metta was described as "loving kindess" in the course. My characterisation of "positive thoughts" was just a simplified version of that.

If you get benefits out of Metta, that's fine, I hope you continue to do so, it just doesn't sit right with me. Desire to love and love are two different things, if you already feel it you don't need it, and if you seek it then you hold yourself back from feeling it. That's how I see it, but if you found benefit in the practice of Metta that's a good thing, and I hope you continue to find benefit from doing it.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#144

Post by littlethrowaway »

pretendscholar wrote: post #132
littlethrowaway wrote: post #102

TLDR: I had a manic psychotic (bipolar) episode triggered on a vipassana course. This was with zero history of mental illness (before or after) Be quite careful with Vipassana, especially if you're not used to regular meditation. It's not just a "silent" retreat in the sense of not talking. Also, no eye contact, no reading/writing and meditating 10 hours a day. It's a seriously stressful time for your brain. I did th…

Wow, thanks for sharing. Very interesting. Were you new to practicing meditation? I could definitely see why ten days would be harmful, its almost like solitary confinement.

Yip, basically totally new to practicing meditation. Utterly naive ;) I actually think it should be a requirement that you undergo a 1 3 or 5 day course first, before they allow you onto a 10 day. Unfortunately, you have to do the 10 day first, before they'll let you do a shorter course.

I did give the organisation this feedback, but, I don't imagine any changes were made.

I also think they should have a trained psychologist to assess people when they're leaving (I would have been picked up as unwell I think as I was definitely manic when I left). Hey ho.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#145

Post by kup0 »

ZenoArrow wrote: post #142
kup0 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's sort of a mis-characterization of Metta (not accusing you of ill intent, to be clear), but I'm not sure how it's taught by Goenka, maybe it was demonstrated poorly. In my experience, it has been to try to wish good things towards all beings (the cessation of suffering that is essential to Buddhist philsophy), from those that are easy to love (family friends, etc) all the way out to those that are the m…

> "I think that's sort of a mis-characterization of Metta (not accusing you of ill intent, to be clear), but I'm not sure how it's taught by Goenka, maybe it was demonstrated poorly. In my experience, it has been to try to wish good things towards all beings (the cessation of suffering that is essential to Buddhist philsophy), from those that are easy to love (family friends, etc) all the way out to those that are th…

Well, regardless, thanks for a different perspective on it.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#146

Post by infiniteseeker »

plinkplonk wrote: post #126

you could just use the meditation algorithm, and meditate by yourself for 10 (or however many) days for multiple multi-hour sessions a day, and avoid having to sit through Goenka's religious meanderings, weird sound tracks and cultiness. Check into a cheap hotel during non-tourist season, sometime in the mountains or near a lake or sea. Switch off the phone. Eat + meditate + sleep * 10 days (or however many you want)…

> Personally, I learned Vipassana (and Jhana) meditation by myself, by reading and experimenting. I've since encountered advanced Buddhist mediators (abbots of Buddhist monasteries etc) who 'confirmed' I'm "doing it right" (fwiw, I wasn't really looking for validation or advice, it just came up in conversation). They didn't seem surprised I taught myself. So I doubt it is that uncommon. If the only way to learn to 'hack' is to attend a 10 day course, that isn't much of a 'hack' in the first place.

Very commendable. Could you please share what you read that was most effective. How much did you practice every day. A brief overview please?

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#147

Post by plinkplonk »

infiniteseeker wrote: post #146
plinkplonk wrote: post #126

you could just use the meditation algorithm, and meditate by yourself for 10 (or however many) days for multiple multi-hour sessions a day, and avoid having to sit through Goenka's religious meanderings, weird sound tracks and cultiness. Check into a cheap hotel during non-tourist season, sometime in the mountains or near a lake or sea. Switch off the phone. Eat + meditate + sleep * 10 days (or however many you want)…

> Personally, I learned Vipassana (and Jhana) meditation by myself, by reading and experimenting. I've since encountered advanced Buddhist mediators (abbots of Buddhist monasteries etc) who 'confirmed' I'm "doing it right" (fwiw, I wasn't really looking for validation or advice, it just came up in conversation). They didn't seem surprised I taught myself. So I doubt it is that uncommon. If the only way to learn to 'h…

In retrospect, the best book I should have read was Shaila Catherine(spelling?)'s "Wisdom Wide and Deep", which sets out a full practice program based on the (Theravada) Buddhist texts Abhidamma and VishuddiMagga. This is about as hard core a book as you can find. Richard Shankman's "The Experience of Samadhi" is a much more lightweight alternative on just Jhana (and not Vipassana iirc), nowhere as deep but an easier read.

In reality, I had to piece together 'algorithms' from random sources and test them out. The basic instructions for jhana and vipassana meditations I ended up with match with those in SK's book, though her path involves getting into extremely deep states of jhana before switching to Vipassana, wheras I developed both skills in parallel (which is a valid method and used by other Buddhist schools)

I used to meditate 2 to 4 hours a day (more on self set 'retreats'). These days I meditate about an hour to 90 minutes per day. I'm not interested in going beyond basic jhana and vipassana and did not do 'skeleton meditation' , 'corpse meditation' etc, because at that point, - about the middle of Shaila's book - the meditations begin to seriously embody Buddhist dogma about the nature of reality and purpose of life etc, specifically ways to 'shake loose' your identification with your body, and so on. I have no wish to be 'liberated' from 'samsara', or otherwise be a full time Buddhist monk or the equivalent, so I stopped with achieving the ability to do either Jhana or Vipassana meditations for a few hours at a time.

I use these purely in a non religious fashion, as 'weight training for my mind' and am happy with my limited achievements.

Even at this relatively minor level of practice, things begin to get funky at the edges, as Steven's paper illustrates.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#148

Post by sizzle »

nylonstrung wrote: post #136
deobald wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Steven here. I wrote the paper.] No, there hasn't. Vipassana courses generally reject applications from anyone with clinical depression or anxiety as the meditation practice is not meant to "heal" anything but also because it can be a bit intense for anyone... much less someone with a clinical mental health issue. There are exceptions. I volunteered for a 10-day course in Gujarat last year and 3 of the men attending…

I was not considered to be someone with a severe mental illness but ended up developing an intense depersonalization + somatoform disorder during a 10 day retreat that I am still struggling to recover from 2 years later. The staff there refused to let me talk to a doctor who was also at the retreat or to call my parents without listening in on the conversation, which made me extremely uncomfortable and caused me to s…

Thanks for sharing your experience, I'll steer clear and inform my friends to be weary.

Re: Vipassana for Hackers [pdf]

#149

Post by _emacsomancer_ »

MichaelGG wrote: post #110
RichardCA wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything in the Goenka system of Vipassana is "open source". You can listen to the discourses and decide for yourself whether it feels too much like a sect. And this is precisely what makes it friendly to the Hacker mind-set.

Most religions are fairly open source and not really hackerish. Does Dhamma org actually publish the discourses? I got the feeling they were only available via the retreats, but have been leaked.

(Vedic) Hinduism historically was not: scriptures were only transmitted orally; the priests made sure to recite quickly/mutter so onlookers (onhearers?) could not get hold of the texts.

All of the Vedic texts have long been published at this point so this is no longer the case.

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