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Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

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Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#121

Post by SBArbeit »

jesseryoung wrote: post #9

Am I missing something here? The custom linux kernel part isn't interesting at all - in fact, Microsoft has pretty much admitted they can't scale down Windows. What's interesting to me here is Microsoft is building an IoT solution that allows manufacturers to delegate security to Microsoft instead of having to roll their own.

Windows runs on IoT devices, Raspberry Pi's... essentially, there aren't many mainstream hardware platforms Windows can't run on. And .NET Core runs on all of them, too.

This is not about Windows technical capability - which is effectively every bit as good as Linux in this space. This is about, "OK, developers, you'd rather have Linux than Windows on your IoT device? Cool. Now get connected to Azure for that IoT data, we'll help you keep that device secure and up-to-date." It's about market share for Azure.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#122

Post by code_duck »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #116
code_duck wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security and antivirus protection exist as much to protect others as oneself, much like vaccines. I wonder whether Microsoft considers updates to be protecting the users of a specific machine from a virus, or the community at large from many machines having that virus?

The problem is, security updates should stick to security, and should be clearly separated from feature updates - especially from the ones that remove features.

OK. I don’t disagree with that but I also am not sure how it is related to my comment.

I’m not defending Microsoft, and I’m not a fan. I am merely speculating on their perspective.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#123

Post by partiallypro »

lsh wrote: post #49
tyingq wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.

Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS must be several orders of magnitude larger. Don't be so eager to forgive them. They're not hugging Linux right now because they're a Good Company trying to Do No Evil.

This is completely false and has been debunked countless times. Your telemetry data is no where near as invasive as what Facebook or Google does.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#124

Post by alexeldeib »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #104
komali2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your idea of a scoreboard. I'm gonna float this at the office. Then again, we're not keen to talk about the fact that nobody has found a flaw in our security model because it'll just invite a ddos, which, yea, I guess that counts as a flaw? As for forever, hence why companies like Microsoft and EI have models for "continual update" on connected devices The idea being that the security upgrades never stop.

Yet that update channel is a door for other attacks. Either its perfectly secure, in which case you need to use that security for your whole app! Or its not, and its vulnerable too. And terribly dangerous, because when broken it may allow complete compromise of the entire device.

I agree with you that this creates a new attack vector. I understand Microsoft is doing some research in the area of IoT device security. This paper describes an interesting approach [1]. It seems there is an eye towards compromised devices (from the fourth page):

"Highly secure devices have renewable security. A device with renewable security can update to a more secure state automatically even after the device has been compromised. Security threats evolve and attackers discover new attack vectors. To counter emerging threats, device security must be renewed regularly. In extreme cases, when compartments and layers of a device are compromised by zero-day exploits, lower layers must rebuild and renew the security of higher levels of the system. Remote attestation and rollback protections guarantee that once renewed, a device cannot be reverted to a known vulnerable state. A device without renewable security is a crisis waiting to happen."

1: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/...

n.b.: MSFT employee, not associated with above work

e: hmm, I realized that the IoT linux offering is actually paired with the MediaTek chip announcement. I guess this is the product incarnation of the technology from the paper?

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#126

Post by lalaithion »

squarefoot wrote: post #60
JudasGoat wrote: post #3

Someone has been predicting that Microsoft would in the future produce their own Linux Distro on Slashdot for the last 5 years. I remember thinking it sounded impossible for for the first few years. Seems prophetic now.

Rather than their Linux distro I think they will do what Google did with Android, that is, making their ecosystem run under the Linux kernel (plus MS services) so that they will save a huge load of money by not having to maintain their own kernel. Think about not having to write drivers for every piece of hardware that gets produced; they would probably just audit and test the code to certify the driver as fully comp…

And then Linus would fork it, and everyone would follow his fork instead of Microsoft's.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#127

Post by Fill1200 »

greenhouse_gas wrote: post #79
derefr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you used Windows 10 Server Core, or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB? There's no data collection in either of those, because they're for serious people. The Home and Pro editions, meanwhile, are effectively "Xbox OS for PCs." They turn your computer into an entertainment appliance run and maintained by Microsoft itself. Of course they collect data, just like there are data-collection agents on all the nodes of your av…

>Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB So tell me, where can I buy that for my personal computer? >because they're for serious people No, because those who can get Windows 10 LTSB actually have the power to push back. Imagine telling Dell or HP that everything they type may be sent to MS at any time. >You can still take control So how can I permanently end all telemetry, now and forever on my box. I'm even willing to sign a let…

Enterprise edition is almost the same as Pro. I use it as a labo PC for free. After expire, I reinstall.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#129

Post by simplexion »

tyingq wrote: post #41
castle-bravo wrote: post #10

Am I paraphrasing this correctly: > Microsoft-branded ARM microcontrollers running an embedded linux distribution. Microsoft rolls out security updates over Azure to reduce the risk of the device becoming part of a botnet. It sounds great.

It does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.

What the fuck is this comment? Seems excessively shill-like. Oh... I just remembered why I stopped coming here.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#130

Post by gmueckl »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #7

The article pretends to answer why they're using Linux instead of the NT kernel, but the answer is either incomplete or a non sequitur; it seems to imply that since the devices has very little power, their kernel isn't a good fit. I thought the NT kernel was pretty good at low power, and also has a highly respected internal design?

Low power is relative: NT is good at saving battery on laptops, but these are supercomputers compared to IoT hardware. The most minimal NT system that I have seen so far was still 50MB. Not sure if MS was able to shrink that further. But in a world where every byte of flash or RAm saved can lead to essential power savings, this is far too big. With a custom linux kernel with no extra drivers and modules and busybox in userspace, you can get much smaller than 50MB.
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