Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#61

Post by derefr » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:23 AM UTC

lsh wrote: post #49

tyingq wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.

Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS must be several orders of magnitude larger. Don't be so eager to forgive them. They're not hugging Linux right now because they're a Good Company trying to Do No Evil.

Have you used Windows 10 Server Core, or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB? There's no data collection in either of those, because they're for serious people.

The Home and Pro editions, meanwhile, are effectively "Xbox OS for PCs." They turn your computer into an entertainment appliance run and maintained by Microsoft itself. Of course they collect data, just like there are data-collection agents on all the nodes of your average production system cluster. When Microsoft is the sysadmin, Microsoft needs to collect ops data.

And, personally, I don't think that's a bad thing, per se. It's a choice you make. You can take control of your PC while still running Windows, if you like. (It's just a big hassle, because truly administering a modern Windows system is a big hassle.)

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#62

Post by tyingq » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:24 AM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #53

tyingq wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.

Linux is probably a more compact OS for IoT than Windows, but it is still pretty bloated.

Should be interesting to see if Fuschia gains some mindshare. Linux is "bloated" by LOC standards, but once you target a specific architecture, the LOC drops dramatically.

The whole LOC drama train is tied to code that doesn't get compiled when you specify the architecture.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#63

Post by minor3rd » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:25 AM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #50

minor3rd wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago. Me too. Good thing Google exists now :)

Ah, see what you did there. But 1998 is pretty close to a "couple of decades". And, I do trust MS more than I trust them now.

Mostly goofing with you. But it is kind of crazy to think 20 years ago, nobody knew about a thing called "Google".

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#64

Post by derefr » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:27 AM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #59

lsh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting! I had a hell of a time turning off all the nasty intrusive bits for my friends and parents. I should take a look at this version.

Yeah, personally, I think Windows for home users is a dying market. My wife and kids use either ChromeOS or OSX. Everything has moved to the web for younger people. Fat client apps are increasingly the exception. Very niche...like "I need Adobe tools, Photoshop, etc". Office 365 is accelerating that. No need for local Word, PowerPoint, Excel, etc.

Windows Is For Games™. Despite the existence of things like SteamOS, I don't think your average e-Sports player is going to run anything besides Windows any time soon. Windows Home/Pro is essentially "the firmware for a custom-built Xbox."

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#65

Post by danellis » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:27 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #42

joezydeco wrote: post #35

After seeing this I think the Amazon AWS/FreeRTOS combo is looking like the better architecture for a node solution. FreeRTOS can run on lowly M3s at 120Mhz, like the LPC2478. A 500MHz A7 part is way too much silicon for an IoT node. How much external SDRAM and Flash are connected to that MediaTek core?

> After seeing this I think the Amazon AWS/FreeRTOS combo is looking like the better architecture for a node solution. FreeRTOS can run on lowly M3s at 120Mhz, like the LPC2478 Is that supposed to imply linux can't? Or that linux plus a GNU subsystem can't? I've personally run it on a lot lower end hardware than that seems to be.

> Is that supposed to imply linux can't?

Regular Linux can't. uCLinux might.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#66

Post by shermanyo » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:30 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #30

Operyl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say the same thing long enough one day it’ll be true in some way (little or big).

Linus is going to write his own Windows distribution

close enough? :P

https://www.winehq.org/

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#67

Post by oldcynic » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #61

lsh wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS must be several orders of magnitude larger. Don't be so eager to forgive them. They're not hugging Linux right now because they're a Good Company trying to Do No Evil.

Have you used Windows 10 Server Core, or Windows 10 Enterprise LTSB? There's no data collection in either of those, because they're for serious people. The Home and Pro editions, meanwhile, are effectively "Xbox OS for PCs." They turn your computer into an entertainment appliance run and maintained by Microsoft itself. Of course they collect data, just like there are data-collection agents on all the nodes of your av…

> Pro edition ... Of course they collect data

There's something fundamentally wrong with that to my mind, given how the Pro release of Windows has always been placed.

I should not need to get an Enterprise release to be able to manage my own machine, restrict the phoning home, and control other basic features of my machine used in a professional context. I've no need of 101 features for managing 1,000 desktops and neither have many smaller businesses who are also now landed with "Xbox OS for PCs".

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#68

Post by flukus » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:39 AM UTC

lsh wrote: post #49

tyingq wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.

Have you actually used Windows 10?? The spotlight is squarely on Facebook and it's privacy intrusions right now, but the data collection when you own the OS must be several orders of magnitude larger. Don't be so eager to forgive them. They're not hugging Linux right now because they're a Good Company trying to Do No Evil.

Ubuntu is following MS lead and introducing data collection by default in 18.04. Google also have a couple of linux based options that are built with the sole purpose of collecting your data.

MS for all their faults are at least still in the business of selling operating systems and not selling you.

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#69

Post by gonzo » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

lightbulbjim wrote: post #32

yndoendo wrote: post #4

Still cannot understand the IoT mentality. It is actually the CoT Communication of Things. Internet shouldn't be required to turn your lights on or off nor be the device communication backbone in an industrial enviornment. Internet should always be the last resort for communicating because of the distance.

The full acronym is IOTWSNBCTTI, or Internet Of Things Which Should Not Be Connected To The Internet.

Inherently Dangerous Internet of Things.

IDIoT

Re: Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service

#70

Post by _sh » Tue, Apr 17, 2018, 1:42 AM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #28

I'm confused: they're saying the devices have an ARM A7 chip (presumably they mean Cortex-A7) in them, which is a full 32-bit microprocessor, but they're calling them "microcontrollers"? I would think Windows could run on a Cortex-A7, no? Perhaps the specific parts they're using have a ridiculously-low clock rate or other painful limitations?

You're right, but there is a lot of misunderstanding around this end of the market, mainly because advances have blurred the traditional segmentation. When talking about ARM, the 'M' in Cortex-M means 'microcontroller' whereas the 'A' in Cortex-A means 'application'. Cortex-A systems are often at the centre of 'System-on-Chips' and will run linux, and indeed the NT kernel as well, as they are bundled with enough RAM and fairly modern peripheral interfaces such as HDMI.

Cortex-Ms typically can't run linux (excepting uClinux) as they don't have the RAM and typically don't need to as they address a different need (dedicated function instead of general-purpose compute), and have far fewer peripheral interfaces. It used to be all about power profile, but the recent SoCs are getting pretty competitive there as well.

But as I said the traditional segmentation at this end of the spectrum is being re-cast seemingly every second week, and so terms such as 'microcontroller' are becoming less meaningful all the time. And who the hell can agree on just what 'embedded' means these days?