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Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

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Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#651

Post by lotyrin »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #648
lotyrin wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely power imbalance, and that can be addressed by policy. Fundamentally, Capital needs Labor as much as Labor needs Capital. There's no economic reason a capitalist contributing nothing should not expect to starve, but a laborer who contributes nothing should expect to, it's just the current market climate and political policy that these are the case such that the imbalance of power perpetuates itself. It s…

A capitalist and a laborer who both contribute nothing should expect nothing as a return. A capitalist who contributes capital should expect investment returns, and a laborer who contributes labor should expect the agreed-upon compensation. Beyond that, the details of who should expect how much come down to supply and demand, of both labor and capital.

A capitalist who invests indiscriminately (e.g. broadly) today, has a positive expected outcome of this, and that's not a given out of the fundamental theory.

The work a capitalist does, their contribution, isn't just writing checks, it's writing the right checks.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#652

Post by kelnos »

iopuy wrote: post #598
perseusprime11 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Bezos, there are two types of decisions- 1) type 1 - where Bezos does not time workers' toilet breaks, and 2) type 2 - where he lets middle managers to create their own rules. It's always Day 1 :)

I'm not sure I understand this comment. Day 1? What are you referencing?

It's a Bezos thing. The idea is that every day is "Day 1". Just because you or your company has been around for years and years or that you've hit a major milestone, you can't rest on your laurels. You need to approach every day as "Day 1" with regard to your attitude toward innovation and moving quickly.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#653

Post by lovich »

thegrimmest wrote: post #564
bbddg wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are against things like paid time off, 40-hour work week, weekends off, workplace safety/health standards, ect.?

Can I say "yes" without being down-voted? I'd like the government not to limit free association of moral agents. Two people should be free to work together under whatever arrangement they voluntarily enter into. All our current system of labour and union law has accomplished is the offshoring of suffering. We've not gotten rid of the existence of, nor our reliance on abhorrent working conditions. We've just moved the…

I understand that viewpoint,and even agree with it mostly on a person to person level, but if the government didn't have these laws why would it be any better. When people tried to negotiate with companies without the states involvement, the companies used violence to try and get their way.

Corporations aren't moral agents and can't be treated as such

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#654

Post by your-nanny »

your-nanny wrote: post #618
conanbatt wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the suppliers of labor and capital are on opposing sides of the fight to capture the wealth the two are used together to create. Opposing sides or collaborators? Like the sun and the soil working together.. Think of those that provide no labor and no capital yet capture great value. Those are the truly destructive.

And in virtue of what does the capitalist provide capital?

In virtue of the fact that a system of law has established and enforces property rights, even at the expense of others labor.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#655

Post by kelnos »

bbddg wrote: post #507
nv-vn wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the degree that workers are not your slaves or property, yes. They should be free to decide who to work for, and employers cannot treat people as their property. But as long as there's informed consent, most things are pretty fair.

So you are against things like paid time off, 40-hour work week, weekends off, workplace safety/health standards, ect.?

In the US, at least, paid time off, a 40-hour work week, and weekends off are not specified by any kind of law.

I'm definitely a fan of workplace health and safety standards, though. Countries without those tend to cut corners to their workers' detriment.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#656

Post by kelnos »

thegrimmest wrote: post #564
bbddg wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are against things like paid time off, 40-hour work week, weekends off, workplace safety/health standards, ect.?

Can I say "yes" without being down-voted? I'd like the government not to limit free association of moral agents. Two people should be free to work together under whatever arrangement they voluntarily enter into. All our current system of labour and union law has accomplished is the offshoring of suffering. We've not gotten rid of the existence of, nor our reliance on abhorrent working conditions. We've just moved the…

As I replied to the parent, the laundry list of items is a little odd, since, in the US at least, the only thing there that's protected by law are the workplace health and safety standards.

And... I guess I must not be as optimistic as you are. If we didn't have things like OSHA, I do not expect that most workplaces would act in the best interests of their workers' health and safety. Look at countries where there aren't OSHA-like laws and see how well they do there. (Hint: not well.)

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#657

Post by squarefoot »

nordsieck wrote: post #470
rectang wrote: post #441

We can't. Labor and capital need each other, but they are forever at odds. Good wages and working conditions can only be won through negotiating from strength. Modern America favors capital. Elections have consequences.

> Modern America favors capital The universe favors capital because capital is more mobile than labor.

Or maybe because capital buys people (->votes->power->more capital).

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#658

Post by [deleted] »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #648
lotyrin wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely power imbalance, and that can be addressed by policy. Fundamentally, Capital needs Labor as much as Labor needs Capital. There's no economic reason a capitalist contributing nothing should not expect to starve, but a laborer who contributes nothing should expect to, it's just the current market climate and political policy that these are the case such that the imbalance of power perpetuates itself. It s…

A capitalist and a laborer who both contribute nothing should expect nothing as a return. A capitalist who contributes capital should expect investment returns, and a laborer who contributes labor should expect the agreed-upon compensation. Beyond that, the details of who should expect how much come down to supply and demand, of both labor and capital.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#659

Post by jackgolding »

delecti wrote: post #472
stone-monkey wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I found out they have a very generous severance program if you know what to ask about. What do you mean? Are you referring to the severance you get if you leave on a PIP?

Yes, but you can also opt-in to that. I told my manager I was dissatisfied and thinking of leaving, he suggested I talk to HR about the pivot program. They then put me on a PIP so I could accept the severance option. Also I had been on an actual PIP before and I'm pretty sure that option wasn't mentioned.

this is crazy to me, check out /r/consulting they view being on a PIP as a doomsday clock where the company will find any excuse to fire you in the next 6 months.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#660

Post by jezclaremurugan »

lotyrin wrote: post #651
Pyxl101 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A capitalist and a laborer who both contribute nothing should expect nothing as a return. A capitalist who contributes capital should expect investment returns, and a laborer who contributes labor should expect the agreed-upon compensation. Beyond that, the details of who should expect how much come down to supply and demand, of both labor and capital.

A capitalist who invests indiscriminately (e.g. broadly) today, has a positive expected outcome of this, and that's not a given out of the fundamental theory. The work a capitalist does, their contribution, isn't just writing checks, it's writing the right checks.

It just happens that a capitalist writing a large number of checks happen to write a couple of right ones. And often we need them to write some wrong ones too.
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