Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#401

Post by spenczar5 » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

kajumix wrote: post #282

kelukelugames wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bezos. Jeff Bezos is the reason why Amazon treats workers they way they do. Compared to other tech giants, Amazon is incredibly anti-employee. Look at how their stocks vest. I worked at Microsoft during Balmer's reign. The founder/CEO's attitude dictates the work culture. And causes harm if it's bad. I live in Seattle and often hear this joke: Being an Amazon customer is the best. An investor is great. An employee no…

Judging from some of the comments here, software engineers working in Amazon must either be stupid or irrational to continue working there, given the market for software engineers. Amazon is a highly successful company with significant anticipate growth still to come. All that success doesn't come without talent. So maybe not stupid, maybe just irrational? Tech companies in general, and Amazon in particular, are high…

At least one reason is that the stock has done so well. A typical software engineer hired 4 years ago is incredibly well compensated at Amazon because of this.

Consider a mid-level software engineer hired 4 years ago, on April 16 2014, with a salary of $100k. A typical stock grant at hiring for a mid-level software engineer in 2014 might be $400k over 4 years, backloaded so most of it comes at the end; on April 16 2014 the share price was $323, so the grant would have looked something this:

  Apr 16 2015: 154 shares @ $323 = $50k  = $150k total comp
  Apr 16 2016: 248 shares @ $323 = $80k  = $180k total comp
  Apr 16 2017: 371 shares @ $323 = $120k = $220k total comp
  Apr 16 2018: 464 shares @ $323 = $150k = $250k total comp

But the share price has gone through the roof since then, so things look more like this:

  Apr 16 2015: 154 shares @   $383 = $59k  = $159k total comp
  Apr 16 2016: 248 shares @   $625 = $155k = $255k total comp
  Apr 16 2017: 371 shares @   $901 = $334k = $434k total comp
  Apr 16 2018: 464 shares @ $1,440 = $668k = $768k total comp

That mid-level, totally normal software engineer is making more than $750k this year because the stock price has gone up so much since 2014. They're likely to put up with a lot of bullshit to get that kind of financial security - that's not just a down payment on a house, it can be the whole thing in cash in the east side suburbs, with great school districts.

Amazon (and Seattle in general) could be in big trouble if the stock price turns around. I don't think that's likely, but it's kind of scary to me.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#402

Post by xg15 » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

kajumix wrote: post #282

kelukelugames wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bezos. Jeff Bezos is the reason why Amazon treats workers they way they do. Compared to other tech giants, Amazon is incredibly anti-employee. Look at how their stocks vest. I worked at Microsoft during Balmer's reign. The founder/CEO's attitude dictates the work culture. And causes harm if it's bad. I live in Seattle and often hear this joke: Being an Amazon customer is the best. An investor is great. An employee no…

Judging from some of the comments here, software engineers working in Amazon must either be stupid or irrational to continue working there, given the market for software engineers. Amazon is a highly successful company with significant anticipate growth still to come. All that success doesn't come without talent. So maybe not stupid, maybe just irrational? Tech companies in general, and Amazon in particular, are high…

I think the conditions apply more to the warehouse workers than the software engeneers.

Presumably both groups are vastly different regarding qualifications, income, ability to switch jobs and freedom to structure their work, so I think they should be taken separately when discussing workplace conditions.

(As an analogy, during the industrial revolution, the people that designed the machines probably weren't the ones that were working 18-hour days in hazardous conditions either.)

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#403

Post by aisengard » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:38 PM UTC

ythn wrote: post #387

aisengard wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a good analogy to something like Uber, because there's no profit motive. What you described is essentially a government works program, which is a great idea! But that's not what anyone seems to be talking about.

You're right, the analogy is not good. I was more thinking about making an app for fun that solves some problem, makes you and your users a little money on the side, mostly intended for teenagers/college students, etc., but then the masses move into to squeeze every last cent out of it and I get demonized and accused of exploiting workers, etc, when it was never meant to be a life-sustaining employment opportunity to…

Someone has to provide necessities to society. In absence of government directly providing it, we force companies to do it. What you want is, essentially, socialism, with a little bit of the market carved out for market capitalism. Sounds good to me!

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#404

Post by StaticRedux » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

aylmao wrote: post #365

StaticRedux wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the evidence? Basic math? If you have $1 million to spend (as an example), and you can open a new store and hire more employees at a lesser rate, or pay your current employees more and not open a new store: opening a new store = growth and more people hired + more revenue paying your current employees more = less "employee misery and churn" and no growth + less revenue

> no growth + less revenue I'd argue it's more like *slower growth, which should be acceptable, especially at Amazon's size. Also, I'd in fact argue that making sure your employees have time to go pee wont significantly hurt your bottom line. At most you might need to hire a few few more people. Amazon operates at numbers big enough that this shouldn't be a considerable expense.

My comment you replied to was a direct response, not in the context of the original conversation.

> I'd argue it's more like *slower growth

Exactly my point, just in a different context. I was speaking on a much smaller scale than Amazon as an example.

If you own a restaurant, and can open a second location and hire more people, you are reinvesting and expanding and bringing in more revenue, which you can reinvest to open more locations. If you pay your current employees more instead, then you aren't opening that new location, and there is no growth (or much smaller growth if your employees do a better job, which would be incremental compared to opening a second location), but people are happier and less taken advantage of.

It's a fine line to walk, and very rarely do companies get it right. Costco is an example of a company that does get it right. There are, unfortunately, far more examples of companies that don't.

The person that replied to me asked for evidence of how reinvestment causes slower growth than paying people more. That side conversation had nothing to do with Amazon.

> Also, I'd in fact argue that making sure your employees have time to go pee wont significantly hurt your bottom line

No one is arguing that. In fact, I agree with it.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#405

Post by gimmeDatCheddar » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #354

burke wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans also need to do better Blaming any problem of this magnitude on individuals is not reasonable. There's a systemic pressure toward overspending through advertising, etc., and we've created a society where many people make an amount of money, that, if spent "wisely", procures a stressful and unfulfilling existence. Clearly Marxism is not the right solution: our system isn't inherently and completely broken,…

> Blaming any problem of this magnitude on individuals is not reasonable. This is just anecdotal, but I see this a LOT. The stubborn insistence that blame is paramount in any discussion and that the world should be made fair before action can be taken to improve one's life is a pretty substantial barrier to said improvement. Sometimes the deck is stacked, and working on unstacking the deck can happen in parallel with…

The people who whine about systemic causes will never admit that there's elements of personal responsibility in these choices.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#406

Post by noir_lord » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #192

jlebrech wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or learn electronics and coding and be the guy/person who fixes the robot.

When these robots arrive, you will most likely have plug and play electronics inside. There will be no user serviceable parts inside.

Without a fair amount of equipment there isn't that much that's user serviceable in modern electronics.

I was mulling that today as I worked on C# code to talk to a Sony camera over WiFi via JSON-RPC.

The fact that this unit has a wireless adapter, an entire TCP/IP stack and a webserver that can parse/generate JSON.

Basically the camera has processing power hundreds likely thousands of times more powerful than my PC and if it breaks there isn't anything on it that would likely be fixable with a soldering iron.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#407

Post by fastball » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

knieveltech wrote: post #285

GuB-42 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is completely true. In shitty countries, most people have a "job" working for the local dictator. They are exploited by force. It works because most work is just manual labor, they don't need highly skilled, well educated workers. It is not the case in developed countries. For example, we don't increase food production by just adding more farmers with hand tools. We have mechanical engineers making m…

Please explain this "need" for exploitative jobs. Edit: No, I'm serious, I want someone to supply an internally consistent rationale that explains why corporations or society in general requires someone getting fucked over to function.

In OP's parlance, a shit job is an exploitative job.

He is saying that through progress there are fewer "shit" jobs, so there are fewer people exploited.

It never has been and never will be economically viable to pay a ditch digger the same amount as a doctor. So as long as jobs like ditch-digging exists, people must be "exploited" to fill them.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#408

Post by gimmeDatCheddar » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

phinnaeus wrote: post #342

gimmeDatCheddar wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$500 a month is $6000 a year. $6000 a year invested from 26 to 66 at 10% interest per year is $2,921,110.87. At 12% it's $5,154,854.34. Keep in mind this is just from a single decision the average person is making.

Just for clarification, where is 10% interest coming from? Mutual funds? 401k? Something else? Serious question, I am not financially knowledgeable but I know you'd never get 10% interest in a savings account (for example).

Mutual funds / index funds / real estate

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#409

Post by delecti » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

hathawsh wrote: post #376

notheguyouthink wrote: post #2

Are Amazon's margins razor thin? I'm trying to understand what compels them to be so toxic in their work environment. Especially compared to the people I know who work at Costco, I struggle to understand why Costco treats employees so well, and Amazon treats their employees so poorly. It's really sad, regardless.

What's mysterious for me is just how much less Costco charges for staples than Amazon does. For example, for Honey Bunches of Oats cereal, Costco charges $0.15 per ounce (if you buy it locally), while Amazon charges $0.52 per ounce. Sometimes Costco even cuts 25% off that price. Bezos has a very long way to go if he wants to conquer that market! https://www.costco.com/Post-Honey-Bunches-of-Oats-with-Almon... https://…

That product isn't sold by Amazon, but by some other seller. A comparable product (though sans Almonds) sold by Amazon through their grocery delivery service is also $0.15/oz.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IAE91AI/ref=afx_dp_ingr...

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#410

Post by fastball » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #351

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

>accept abusive employment My friends and I tried to "end game" the conservative mindset and I hadn't thought of this option. Our exercise was: if hard conservatives achieved their goal of, say, eliminating food stamps, what would happen? Presumably private churches etc couldn't pick up all the slack so the only thing we could think of was skyrocketing crime. What, are people going to just starve to death when they c…

Why is getting a job not an option?