Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

pulse.ng

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 721 posts

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#271

Post by GuB-42 »

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #47

My fear is that the future of work for most people is not unemployment, but shitty jobs like this. My feeling is that in order to avoid this and prosper, the people need to own the robots that do all the work (Marxism heyy). If robots provide huge productivity gains, then they will provide those gains for their owners. If it’s the big corporations that own them, they will see the gains. But as long as people are trea…

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

I don't think it is completely true. In shitty countries, most people have a "job" working for the local dictator. They are exploited by force. It works because most work is just manual labor, they don't need highly skilled, well educated workers.

It is not the case in developed countries. For example, we don't increase food production by just adding more farmers with hand tools. We have mechanical engineers making more efficient machines, chemists producing better fertilizers, scientists studying plant growth, etc... These people need a high level of education, which mean they need the time and resources to study. People starving won't make the skilled workers employers need.

What really enables exploitative jobs is the need for exploitative jobs.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#272

Post by vkou »

conanbatt wrote: post #236
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

Please, the world had 94% extreme poverty in their time, and its down to less than 10%. The model of exploitation they have cannot possible account for that. I have tremendous sympathy for the empathic pain they had by seeing those levels of exploitation. Das Kapital's first volume is basically 50% accounts of child labor and exploitation. But they had no way to know that when the state holds the capital the results…

> The model of exploitation they have cannot possible account for that.

No, what accounts for that is access to incredibly cheap energy, in the form of fossil fuels and electrification.

Energy is what lifted people out of poverty, not any of that other nonsense. Without coal, oil, and hydro power, most of us would still be subsistence peasants, regardless of whether or not we would live in Communism, Feudalism, Capitalism, Fascism, or some other -ism.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#273

Post by tsnont34nt »

gimmeDatCheddar wrote: post #249
ihm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 80% of stock is owned by the top 10% wealthiest individuals[1]. More recent work[2] puts the percentage even higher. You might own some of the robots but most people don't. [1]: https://appam.confex.com/appam/2012/webprogram/ExtendedAbstr... [2]: http://time.com/money/5054009/stock-ownership-10-percent-ric...

But you know what most people DO own? Unnecessary consumer debt that stunts their ability to save and invest. When the average car payment in America is around $500 a month, it's clear evidence that people have a spending problem rather than an income problem. Here's an idea: Teach people not to finance $500 worth of car each month (plus gas, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus healthcare costs) and suddenly peopl…

Can you post a reference to that $500 number? I find that hard to believe. I was leasing a luxury car for around $400/mo a few years ago. What kinds of cars are average Americans leasing? Rolls Royces?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#274

Post by mnemonicsloth »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #130
creep wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds interesting, but also like a lot of bureaucracy. What happens when the people want to change the way the robots are operating? What if the robots don't do exactly what they're told? Who manages manufacturing robots vs transportation robots vs communications robots? Would the people have to elect representatives to deal with the robots?

I assume that the engineering would be run like an open source project. Debian is a good example, or the Linux kernel. The best stuff is decided by the contributors and anyone is welcome to fork and compete. Actual labor of manufacturing and distribution is handled by competing companies (which may be democratically operated) but the tech is open source so “lock in” (which is a man made inefficiency in the market) ca…

For every good piece of open source software there is an awful lot of crap. For every good open-source organization there are a lot of dysfunctional little groups that work at cross purposes and never get anything done. You're talking about appropriating vital infrastructure here. How do you know your open-source corporation will turn out to be productive?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#275

Post by twothamendment »

seanalltogether wrote: post #65
atrexler wrote: post #23

Long-haul truckers have been doing this for decades for the same reason-- they don't have time to pull over and use the restroom-- and no one is upset about that. I'm sure there are many industries, white and blue collar, where similar norms are expressed. Edit to add: I'm not endorsing the practice in any industry at all, just pointing out that its not a unique problem to Amazon. My comment would have been better ph…

Long haul truckers have a goal they are trying to reach, an end of the line that completes their job. It's reasonable to expect that they would occasionally take opportunities to cut time down to reach their destination faster. Warehouse jobs have no goal, no end in sight, it's a nonstop churn and having to use tricks to shave your time down doesn't result in extra time off, it just results in more work.

> Warehouse jobs have no goal, no end in sight, it's a nonstop churn...

Long haul truckers may see things the same. There may be a destination, but there is always another after that. It is all about timing departure and arrival and those pesky reset periods. They are under constant pressure to keep moving, always pushing to the next place. If you push hard and make it once it will be expected the next time too.

For some it is a conveyor belt and list of orders, for other s it is a highway and a never ending list of destinations.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#276

Post by toomuchtodo »

StaticRedux wrote: post #250
toomuchtodo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can't grow your business to be a monstrosity without treating your employees like slaves, your business should not exist.

You clearly completely ignored my second sentence. "That's not to say they shouldn't treat employees better'. It is a simple fact I stated. Reinvesting in new areas allows them to employ more people in those areas. This isn't an opinion, it's just a fact. > If you can't grow your business to be a monstrosity without treating your employees like slaves, your business should not exist. Hardly any companies make it to b…

My comment was more of a call to action, but I can see how that wasn't clear. Apologies if you felt I didn't properly comprehend your comment.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#277

Post by RockyMcNuts »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #47

My fear is that the future of work for most people is not unemployment, but shitty jobs like this. My feeling is that in order to avoid this and prosper, the people need to own the robots that do all the work (Marxism heyy). If robots provide huge productivity gains, then they will provide those gains for their owners. If it’s the big corporations that own them, they will see the gains. But as long as people are trea…

Subsistence farming and coal mining were shitty jobs too.

Most jobs have always been shitty, this is less shitty than most and pays somewhat better (I believe Amazon is harder work than Walmart but pays more). And you can't find Americans to work in the fields, mines, slaughterhouses anymore.

If it was really shitty the US would get foreigners to do it. So much of the stuff Amazon ships is made overseas we almost might as well cut out the middleman and ship it directly from abroad, put a few giant warehouses just offshore or in Mexico. (I kid)

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#278

Post by nostromo »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #3
notheguyouthink wrote: post #2

Are Amazon's margins razor thin? I'm trying to understand what compels them to be so toxic in their work environment. Especially compared to the people I know who work at Costco, I struggle to understand why Costco treats employees so well, and Amazon treats their employees so poorly. It's really sad, regardless.

Yes, a famous quote by Bezos is "Your margin is my opportunity". Also, he runs the company the same way. A lot of capex for Amazon is reinvesting in the company.

I see this quote often, but it hasn't really panned out for Amazon in practice.

I see other large tech companies (Google, Apple, Facebook) with these huge profit margins every quarter, year after year. Amazon has never made a dent in any of them, nor made a sizable profit themselves, despite all of that "opportunity."

Perhaps he's not speaking of tech but of retail, in which case the margins of companies like Walmart are already incredibly tight.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#279

Post by josephv »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #252
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

I believe it is technically possible to construct machines that produce most of life’s basic necessities at zero marginal cost. I am generally interested in finding others who want to work with me to design the first prototypes of these machines. We can build any system we’d like.

So you have whatever mental model you have dreamed up for zero marginal production costs. Does this zero cost production include zero spoilage during the zero cost logistics to move the zero cost food, water, and shelter?

Of course, we can build all of those things because we'd like it. Zero marginal cost world peace awaits us!

I encourage you to chase this! I also encourage a backup plan.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#280

Post by StaticRedux »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #276
StaticRedux wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly completely ignored my second sentence. "That's not to say they shouldn't treat employees better'. It is a simple fact I stated. Reinvesting in new areas allows them to employ more people in those areas. This isn't an opinion, it's just a fact. > If you can't grow your business to be a monstrosity without treating your employees like slaves, your business should not exist. Hardly any companies make it to b…

My comment was more of a call to action, but I can see how that wasn't clear. Apologies if you felt I didn't properly comprehend your comment.

Ah, cool. Well for what it's worth, I agree with what you said. Becoming a behemoth at the cost of human suffering should not be acceptable in a civilized society.
Post reply on HN