Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#261

Post by eeZah7Ux » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #162

Consultant32452 wrote: post #40

What's so special about Amazon in comparison to the Chinese factories where those goods are manufactured? Are we just upset because these people are geographically closer? Or is it nationalism; Americans/Westerners are too good for such treatment? Racism?

I used to think it was some sort of nationalism, but I think it's mostly because making sure all Americans are treated well is a much more tractable problem than worrying about the welfare of literally everyone in the world. It is conceivably possible for every American to have adequate food, housing, and medical care, to work in safe and humane conditions, and so forth. Even that seems crazy and utopian to some, but…

> It is conceivably possible for every American to have adequate food, housing, and medical care, to work in safe and humane conditions, and so forth.

It is conceivably possible for every human - given the current available resources.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#262

Post by neolefty » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

atrexler wrote: post #23

Long-haul truckers have been doing this for decades for the same reason-- they don't have time to pull over and use the restroom-- and no one is upset about that. I'm sure there are many industries, white and blue collar, where similar norms are expressed. Edit to add: I'm not endorsing the practice in any industry at all, just pointing out that its not a unique problem to Amazon. My comment would have been better ph…

Can confirm both—they do, and many don't mind. My brother is a truck driver.

Note also that it's harder to get to a bathroom from a truck on a highway than from a desk in an office.

Edit: Does not excuse Amazon's labor behavior.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#263

Post by StaticRedux » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #50

StaticRedux wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other side of the coin, if they hadn't spent the money on reinvesting, they wouldnt be the size they are now or employ as many people. (This is not saying they shouldn't treat employees better, just that the reason they employ so many people in the first place is bc of reinvesting and expanding to more areas. It's not as simplistic as, 'if they have the money they should spend it on people instead of business'…

>On the other side of the coin, if they hadn't spent the money on reinvesting, they wouldnt be the size they are now or employ as many people. Where is the evidence? Whose to say how much faster they would have grown without the employee misery and churn?

> Where is the evidence?

Basic math?

If you have $1 million to spend (as an example), and you can open a new store and hire more employees at a lesser rate, or pay your current employees more and not open a new store:

opening a new store = growth and more people hired + more revenue

paying your current employees more = less "employee misery and churn" and no growth + less revenue

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#264

Post by balls187 » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

philbarr wrote: post #91

jrochkind1 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait, you're sure there are many industries, white and blue collar, where workers routinely pee in bottles as a job requirement? Really? In the U.S.? You're pretty sure about this, eh? Many industries? I'd be curious to hear an example of one industry where "white collar" workers routinely pee in bottles as a job requirement, official or unofficial.

My dev team are all forced to use the same bottle to save time. The one who tops it off and has to go off to empty it is docked pay.

What if someone breaks the build?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#265

Post by teemwerk » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

Sargos wrote: post #235

m_fayer wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many tech stocks pay very little in dividends or none at all, even if the company is quite profitable. In tech it's all about share price.

That's because they are growing at a large rate. When that growth stops the only option they will have is to pay dividends. The investors make money either way.

There's also buybacks, which has mostly been tech companies' weapon of choice when it comes to capital return.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#266

Post by hfdgiutdryg » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

gimmeDatCheddar wrote: post #249

ihm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around 80% of stock is owned by the top 10% wealthiest individuals[1]. More recent work[2] puts the percentage even higher. You might own some of the robots but most people don't. [1]: https://appam.confex.com/appam/2012/webprogram/ExtendedAbstr... [2]: http://time.com/money/5054009/stock-ownership-10-percent-ric...

But you know what most people DO own? Unnecessary consumer debt that stunts their ability to save and invest. When the average car payment in America is around $500 a month, it's clear evidence that people have a spending problem rather than an income problem. Here's an idea: Teach people not to finance $500 worth of car each month (plus gas, plus insurance, plus maintenance, plus healthcare costs) and suddenly peopl…

Teach people not to finance $500 worth of car each month (plus gas, plus insurance, plus maintenance

How? Keep in mind, I drive a car I bought for $1700 cash and I've restored and maintained it with my own hands.

Most people don't have the time, knowledge, tools, or space to maintain an older car, so a new car with a warranty is a smart move.

New cars are safer and more fuel efficient. They last longer than ever before. Not having a car is not an option for most Americans.

I don't see how a car payment is indicative of poor decision-making.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#267

Post by eeZah7Ux » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #144

hueving wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's whataboutism. There are people in terrible conditions all over the world that US citizens can do little about. When it happens in the country where we can vote on laws and candidates, we can do something about it. So it's important to focus on those cases and set an example.

Sounds like your answer is nationalism. We could just as easily be talking about laws and candidates who want to improve our trade agreements such that workers in China, Mexico, etc. get better working conditions. I don't particularly like the conditions at Amazon either, but I see it as the obvious result of globalism. When 70% of the world lives on less than $10 per day, what we call decent conditions is really a f…

> Eventually we'll average out.

Right now it's doing the opposite. Middle and lower classes are getting poorer in rich parts of the world. Billionaires are getting so much richer.

Gini coefficients are going up.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#268

Post by CamTin » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

gimmeDatCheddar wrote: post #231

noonespecial wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I do already own some of the robots. I have Amazon stock in my 401k. That's what "the people owning the robots" looks like. What you're getting at is that there are many people right now who are too poor (and are going to be too poor) to ever own any part of the robots. This century's great debate is forming up to be whether or not we should give them some anyway even though they can't "earn" it for whatever movi…

The average working class American is financing their car. The average car payment is $500. That is way too much car, yet people are financing that. Over the average working career, this $500 per month represents a foregone multi-million dollar net worth at retirement. So the average working class American is poor or struggling for cash not because of income issues, but because of spending issues. We have a spending…

I can't find a way that $500 per month adds up to "multi-million dollar net worth". Even at a very optimistic 10% return rate, it comes to just over 1.1 million over thirty years. What assumptions are you making in your calculation to come up with 2million+ at retirement from $500 per month of savings?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#269

Post by allthenews » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #252

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

I believe it is technically possible to construct machines that produce most of life’s basic necessities at zero marginal cost. I am generally interested in finding others who want to work with me to design the first prototypes of these machines. We can build any system we’d like.

The "marginal" costs come from gathering and refining the raw resources that the machines operate on, and maintenance.

We already have machines that produce food. Why do you think they are still manned by an entire workforce? Out of sadism?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#270

Post by decebalus1 » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

rossbmiller wrote: post #210

decebalus1 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think Amazon's stock vesting schedule for ICs is reasonable considering the sizable hiring bonus (iirc ~$20k for new graduates) One can get this bonus basically everywhere else in the area with similar sized companies. Hell, I got way more than that 8 years ago. The vesting schedule is diabolical: > 5% 1st yr, 15% 2nd yr, then 20% every 6 months coupled with the turnover rate: http://www.slate.com/content/dam/sla…

I think it's brilliant. If you live in Seattle and know anyone who's a mid-level corporate employee at Amazon, you should notice that it's a great way of selecting talent who are committed to the company and who will stick around. Also, contracts are re-negotiated every two years, so if you chain them up, you're getting a pretty significant annual payout.

It's brilliant for Amazon, not so much for the employee and it doesn't matter if you're committed to the company if the relationship is not bilateral (and it's often not). You can re-negotiate your pay and stuff but if the company has a financial incentive not to, there are several HR devices to keep you from doing so. Let's not bring up the regular reorgs which are notorious for wiping out careers.

I've been living in the Seattle area for a really long time and I've heard so many horror stories coming from Amazon that I could fill a book.

Also, I am aware of the 'Amazon is not for everyone' narrative. Yes, I agree, it's not for people who value their work/life balance and expect to be treated as a human at their workplace.

I am also aware of the 'it depends on the team' narrative. That's bullshit. Indeed it does depend on the team but 'generally' (to quote Zuck) it sucks.