Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#231

Post by gimmeDatCheddar » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

noonespecial wrote: post #87

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #47

My fear is that the future of work for most people is not unemployment, but shitty jobs like this. My feeling is that in order to avoid this and prosper, the people need to own the robots that do all the work (Marxism heyy). If robots provide huge productivity gains, then they will provide those gains for their owners. If it’s the big corporations that own them, they will see the gains. But as long as people are trea…

But I do already own some of the robots. I have Amazon stock in my 401k. That's what "the people owning the robots" looks like. What you're getting at is that there are many people right now who are too poor (and are going to be too poor) to ever own any part of the robots. This century's great debate is forming up to be whether or not we should give them some anyway even though they can't "earn" it for whatever movi…

The average working class American is financing their car. The average car payment is $500. That is way too much car, yet people are financing that. Over the average working career, this $500 per month represents a foregone multi-million dollar net worth at retirement. So the average working class American is poor or struggling for cash not because of income issues, but because of spending issues. We have a spending problem in this country. If everyone working in Amazon's warehouses prioritized wise financial decisions, like not financing a car for $500 a month or more, they'd be able to demand better work conditions because they wouldn't be as dependent on the job.

Amazon needs to do better, but working class Americans also need to do better with their finances so they don't spend themselves into awful situations like this. Ultimately the idea that the average working class American will never be able to afford stock is just a fairy tale peddled by Marxists. The average working class American is more than capable of amassing a multi million dollar net worth by retirement by making wise decisions and investing, instead of crapping away all their income on things they don't actually need.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#232

Post by didibus » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

aylmao wrote: post #121

noonespecial wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I do already own some of the robots. I have Amazon stock in my 401k. That's what "the people owning the robots" looks like. What you're getting at is that there are many people right now who are too poor (and are going to be too poor) to ever own any part of the robots. This century's great debate is forming up to be whether or not we should give them some anyway even though they can't "earn" it for whatever movi…

> But I do already own some of the robots. I have Amazon stock in my 401k. That's what "the people owning the robots" looks like. Is it though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't stock only generates value if it increases in price (or the company decides it wants to pay dividends), and not directly from the productivity of robots? To put it a bit more clearly, your stock only makes you money if Amazon keeps growing…

Yes.

The revenue is used somehow. The board decides how. And shareholders elect board members.

Thus, if growth stalled, but there was excess revenue, the board would need to decide where it goes. It could be used to help growth revive, by using it to invest in future prospects, it could choose to use it towards employee compensations, maybe if it believes its required to retain talent, or it could choose to give it to shareholders as dividend.

If the board does make decisions the shareholders don't like, they can eventually be booted out and replaced by a new one.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#233

Post by teemwerk » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #147

aylmao wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I do already own some of the robots. I have Amazon stock in my 401k. That's what "the people owning the robots" looks like. Is it though? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't stock only generates value if it increases in price (or the company decides it wants to pay dividends), and not directly from the productivity of robots? To put it a bit more clearly, your stock only makes you money if Amazon keeps growing…

To put it a bit more clearly, your stock only makes you money if Amazon keeps growing No, I think you have it incorrect. As long as revenue > costs and internal expenditures, you make money by dividends. That's the whole reason we buy stocks. Price growth is ultimately just a projection of the belief in higher future dividends.

I don't want to split hairs because you are correct, and this isn't really directed at you.

I'd just like to point out that if you believe in roughly efficient markets, if your enterprise maintains its value, if you amass a pile of cash, that will be reflected in your share price.

The dividends come directly out of that share price whenever issued. You can theoretically amass a pile of money that would make Smaug blush, and this will increase your share price to reflect. But that cash isn't being reinvested, it's only going to increase linearly with respect to that cash position. Which is why in many circumstances investors frown upon it.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#234

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

creep wrote: post #92

marsrover wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not eating or drinking enough is a whole different ballgame than pissing in a bottle.

You're right: not eating and drinking enough is damaging to your long-term health and well-being, while pissing in a bottle damages your pride.

Nope. Pissing in a bottle is a signal that older workers who lack the ability and women who lack the anatomy not welcome.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#235

Post by Sargos » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #175

lr4444lr wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put it a bit more clearly, your stock only makes you money if Amazon keeps growing No, I think you have it incorrect. As long as revenue > costs and internal expenditures, you make money by dividends. That's the whole reason we buy stocks. Price growth is ultimately just a projection of the belief in higher future dividends.

Many tech stocks pay very little in dividends or none at all, even if the company is quite profitable. In tech it's all about share price.

That's because they are growing at a large rate. When that growth stops the only option they will have is to pay dividends. The investors make money either way.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#236

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #140

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #47

My fear is that the future of work for most people is not unemployment, but shitty jobs like this. My feeling is that in order to avoid this and prosper, the people need to own the robots that do all the work (Marxism heyy). If robots provide huge productivity gains, then they will provide those gains for their owners. If it’s the big corporations that own them, they will see the gains. But as long as people are trea…

Well, Marx and Engels did accurately identify that a large reserve of under-employed workers, or people who didn't previously participate in the labor force, is what enables the most exploitative jobs. All necessities in life cost money: food, housing, childcare, healthcare; and those in the most precarious social positions are the people most willing to accept abusive employment for reasons directly tied to their su…

Please, the world had 94% extreme poverty in their time, and its down to less than 10%. The model of exploitation they have cannot possible account for that.

I have tremendous sympathy for the empathic pain they had by seeing those levels of exploitation. Das Kapital's first volume is basically 50% accounts of child labor and exploitation. But they had no way to know that when the state holds the capital the results are even worse, had marx seen the soviet union at its prime he would have probably revised his own theory.

Marx's reserve army doesn't hold water. And he himself denounces that one of the most common ways of the exploitative model was precisely how much the aristocrats ignored private property rights and pushed people to extreme poverty and marginalization.

He had and still has many interesting ideas, but he was very much wrong about many of them. Which is fine, all these economists got things super wrong.

And another interesting point Marx made: Look how well America is doing! Europe should be like that.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#237

Post by prostoalex » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #47

My fear is that the future of work for most people is not unemployment, but shitty jobs like this. My feeling is that in order to avoid this and prosper, the people need to own the robots that do all the work (Marxism heyy). If robots provide huge productivity gains, then they will provide those gains for their owners. If it’s the big corporations that own them, they will see the gains. But as long as people are trea…

> the people need to own the robots that do all the work

What happens when a private party (or a competitive public party, like China) designs cheaper and more efficient robots?

The conflict is explored in Ayn Rand's "Anthem", where the society is a collective owner of a candle factory and therefore resists advance of electricity, or Mike Judge's "Idiocracy", where half of the workers in the country are employed in various capacities by Brawndo beverage company.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#238

Post by eeZah7Ux » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #182

baby wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a few centuries students in history classes will look back and try to understand why we let our people die in the streets.

we just halved poverty in the world in the past 20 years. Time to check your facts again.

halved != eradicated.

Given the incredible amount of energy and resources being wasted by some of the richest countries this level of inequality is far from acceptable.

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#239

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

bmurphy1976 wrote: post #191

conanbatt wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think these people were doing being being drivers for uber?

Probably struggling from the previous 40 years of union busting, rights erosion, offshoring, financial manipulation, and discrimination.

Struggling doesn't pay. What where they doing with the productivity before Uber, thats the question. Are you saying they weren't doing anything at all and uber lifted them out of extreme poverty?

Re: Amazon warehouse workers 'peed in bottles' fearing punishment for taking breaks

#240

Post by hajile » Mon, Apr 16, 2018, 4:59 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #144

hueving wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's whataboutism. There are people in terrible conditions all over the world that US citizens can do little about. When it happens in the country where we can vote on laws and candidates, we can do something about it. So it's important to focus on those cases and set an example.

Sounds like your answer is nationalism. We could just as easily be talking about laws and candidates who want to improve our trade agreements such that workers in China, Mexico, etc. get better working conditions. I don't particularly like the conditions at Amazon either, but I see it as the obvious result of globalism. When 70% of the world lives on less than $10 per day, what we call decent conditions is really a f…

This question pops up all the time with UN human rights inspectors. When they're about to show up for inspection, everyone puts on their smiley faces and pretends they aren't basically slaves. After they are gone, it's back to work.

The modus operandi is to keep them from seeing. If that doesn't work, bribe. If that doesn't work, blackmail. If that doesn't work, kill and try again with the next person.

There's a further problem. Even with slave prices for goods, it's still often cheaper for companies to build factories on the continent because shipping is so expensive. Raise the wages and the company moves away at which point, there are no jobs at all.

So you dictate that the company must stay there no matter what and the price of goods goes up. Since people have a finite amount of money, they will purchase fewer things and maybe won't buy that particular product at all. Do you now dictate that the consumer buys?

It is very easy to turn people into slaves by trying to prevent people from turning into slaves. Solutions are seldom simple and idyllic. Choose the good when possible, but usually, you just choose the best of the worst.