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Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

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Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#91

Post by FLUX-YOU »

kelnos wrote: post #87
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't surprise me if Volantio or airlines automatically checked to see how often someone flies and tries to lowball them.

It depends. It seems like the goal here is to make the airlines money while still making it seem to the passenger like they've gotten a decent deal. A less frequent traveler who doesn't know that $300 is a low-ball offer might be perfectly satisfied with that, even while a more frequent traveler would laugh at such an offer. There's no objective measure of the feeling of "getting a good deal". It's entirely subjectiv…

Honestly it wasn't until I actually flew on a 787 that I realized the trade-off. My only frame of reference was ~1998 economy-class flight quality.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#92

Post by bogomipz »

tyingq wrote: post #26
Fenn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. (Disclosure: I'm cofounder/CTO of Volantio). Airlines are very much currently burdened with a legacy that was cemented in sometime in the 50's. It may be worth mentioning that airlines are perhaps less-evil than is apparent from the outside. Most of their baffling behaviour is (IMHO) largely due to lack of capabilities rather than malevolence. Ultimately, they're given a large multi-dimensional optimisation pro…

"Airlines are very much currently burdened with a legacy that was cemented in sometime in the 50's." Personally, I find this common observation off base. Most airlines have pushed the legacy TPF layer into a sort of nosql data store. Both Sabre and Amadeus have been able to pull the business logic out of TPF. Any sort of lagging technical progress seems more related to either thin margins, or the complexity you point…

>"Most airlines have pushed the legacy TPF layer into a sort of nosql data store."

Sorry what is TPF here?

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#93

Post by tyingq »

bogomipz wrote: post #92
tyingq wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Airlines are very much currently burdened with a legacy that was cemented in sometime in the 50's." Personally, I find this common observation off base. Most airlines have pushed the legacy TPF layer into a sort of nosql data store. Both Sabre and Amadeus have been able to pull the business logic out of TPF. Any sort of lagging technical progress seems more related to either thin margins, or the complexity you point…

>"Most airlines have pushed the legacy TPF layer into a sort of nosql data store." Sorry what is TPF here?

The legacy IBM mainframe OS that powers the base layer for most airlines, and also things like credit card transactions.

It's completely different from the most prevalent mainframe OS (zOs/MVS).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transaction_Processing_Facil...

Think of it like nosql. High transaction rates, and high contention. Great when used for it's strengths, terrible otherwise. Close to bare metal, and hard to match for transactions/second with decades newer tech. The record sizes are closely matched to hardware I/O offload cache sizes. It's an I/O beast.

Imagine an OS built specifically to ignore things like private memory space in favor of specific dedicated drivers with intimate knowledge of specific disk and cache controllers to read and write as fast as possible, skipping the CPU whenever possible. And hardware -aware record locking semantics.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#94

Post by URSpider94 »

bogomipz wrote: post #68
hueving wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You are simply enabling airlines to continue this unethical practice Don't project your morals onto the rest of us. As a frequent flyer who likes to travel I love this practice. It means lower prices overall and it gives me the opportunity to fly for free somewhere else later if I volunteer out. With the switch to real cash compensation on some airlines, I can even make money if I don't feel like using it to fly. I…

>"Don't project your morals onto the rest of us" I'm not projecting "my" morals onto anybody. Intentionally overbooking and knowing full well that you are going to bring inconvenience and stress to people is just plain fucked up. That's not really a grey area. If you bought a ticket to a movie and then were asked to leave the theater before the movie started in order to make room for someone else who bought a ticket…

Airlines would be willing to do this if all tickets were 100% non-refundable, non-exchangeable, no excuses. But, that would be a terrible experience for customers. Imagine if you missed your flight, and were informed that you had no choice but to pay for another ticket.

Movie theatres can do this because the $12 loss of missing a movie is annoying, but not life-changing, and the social contract is that event tickets are not changeable.

I would wager that the fallout of tens of thousands of people per day being told they have to re-buy a ticket if they miss their flight would have much greater negative fall-out than the much smaller number who get involuntarily bumped.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#95

Post by URSpider94 »

bogomipz wrote: post #81
vannevar wrote: post #15

There's a much simpler solution to the overbooking problem: eliminate the fraud exemption that airlines currently enjoy, allowing them to sell the same seat twice. The downside is that, if airlines are unable to resell unused seats, more flights will fly partially empty, reducing overall efficiency of the industry. But if they offer standby "tickets" at steep discounts (instead of making every ticket a probabilistic…

>"The downside is that, if airlines are unable to resell unused seats, more flights will fly partially empty, reducing overall efficiency of the industry" You are talking about load factor and its not so much an issue any more. See: http://atwonline.com/airline-traffic/top-30-airlines-passeng...

Part of the reason those load factors are so high is that airlines are allowed to oversell capacity, to help ensure that as many seats as possible are occupied.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#96

Post by URSpider94 »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #5

I'm surprised that airlines wouldn't/couldn't build this functionality themselves. Does anyone here have insight into the 'buy vs. build' decision that any of these airlines went through in adopting this company's services?

Each airline would have to build their own system, which would be highly inefficient. If a third party builds it, all of the airlines can share the benefit.

Also, I would imagine that a third party system would help by discovering arbitrage opportunities across carriers - when you have to bump passengers, you could offload them to another carrier with more availability.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#97

Post by URSpider94 »

tysonzni wrote: post #67
kwhitefoot wrote: post #66

As far as I can tell overbooking is an almost exclusively US phenomenon. In Europe I don't know of anyone who has been 'bumped' off a flight because it was overbooked. Low cost airlines like Ryanair manage to fill flights without overbooking. There is a lot to dislike about Mr O'Leary's company but I don't think anyone worries that their ticket is not going to be honoured.

Low cost airlines like Ryanair manage to fill flights without overbooking. Presumably the reason why US airlines overbook is to maximize yield since almost always some passengers don't show up. Any reason why non-US airlines don't do the same? I suspect it has to do with ticket regulations but would like to learn more.

European budget carriers have figured out how to lower the bar to a level unknown in the US. One carry-on, zero checked luggage allowance, pay to pre-assign a seat, pay for water on-board, pay 30 Eur if you don’t pre-print your own boarding pass at home, scan, tag and check your own luggage. Almost all tickets are 100% non-refundable - miss the flight, you’re going to pay for another ticket. Prices are low enough that people are willing to suffer through the experience, and keep the planes completely full. It’s more like a Greyhound bus in the air.

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#98

Post by bogomipz »

jptman wrote: post #53
tyingq wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a broad brush. Airlines aren't all at the same point in dealing with overbooking. It's also not a trivial issue given the slim margins and complexity. Consider connecting flights, different fare types (refundable or not, advance purchase, etc). Also, differing aircraft types, how many seats they have, and which crews are qualified to fly them. Oh, and weather. If you think the root cause is "airline IT is inco…

I'm not sure I'd call it "failed commercially at solving booking". Google stopped their work on creating a booking system after the acquisition since they were never interested in getting into booking.

Which acquisition was this?

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#99

Post by tyingq »

bogomipz wrote: post #98
jptman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I'd call it "failed commercially at solving booking". Google stopped their work on creating a booking system after the acquisition since they were never interested in getting into booking.

Which acquisition was this?

Google/ITA. https://www.google.com/press/ita/faq.html

Re: Airlines Are Backing Volantio (YC W09), a Startup That Could Fix Overbooking

#100

Post by bogomipz »

URSpider94 wrote: post #95
bogomipz wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"The downside is that, if airlines are unable to resell unused seats, more flights will fly partially empty, reducing overall efficiency of the industry" You are talking about load factor and its not so much an issue any more. See: http://atwonline.com/airline-traffic/top-30-airlines-passeng...

Part of the reason those load factors are so high is that airlines are allowed to oversell capacity, to help ensure that as many seats as possible are occupied.

Interesting my understanding was that they were influencing load factor simply by scaling back the number of flights per day on a certain routes. Might you have any links?

I imagine as someone else also pointed out that this venture being discussed here will ultimately used to oversell even more.

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