China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector • Hacker News Board

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#131

Post by pm90 » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #92

barrkel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who says a fake Gucci is a crime, if the buyer knows it's fake. It's not enough for the buyer to know it's fake, everyone who sees it must also know it's fake, or else the fake is freeriding on the cachet generated by Gucci's marketing. People buy prominently branded fashion objects for their signalling value more than their utility value. Signalling which is easy to fake isn't very valuable. It's perfectly possibl…

I wasn't trying to make a semantic point, more of a sovereignty or legislative point. I'm perfectly willing to concede the semantic point: that bag is fake. The legislative one is "does thia have to be a crime?" Trademark (like most IP rules) are ultimately decided mostly on utility grounds. Does this IP system produce or destroy economic value, and who's value is it producing and destroying. Maybe China can do witho…

This has always been the case. America "stole" IP from Britain during the industrial revolution. China is doing the same now. IP laws are part of the legal doctrine of any country; another Sovereign entity cannot be compelled to follow it legally. So you use other tactics, e.g. membership in the WTO, which gives access to Western markets, to try and force other Sovereign nations to respect those laws.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#132

Post by pm90 » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #95

dalbasal wrote: post #32

The "trade war" thing has been the most/only interesting ideas to come from trump, to me. It was interesting in that he did recognized (fluked into?) an actual shift in public/expert position. China is the pro-trade side. They'll be willing to make concessions, do the work, etc. It's the beijing consensus now, not washington. Large american companies are still on the pro-trade side, being multinationals. They also ha…

> China is the pro-trade side. They'll be willing to make concessions, do the work, etc. It's the beijing consensus now, not washington. China isn't pro trade per se. They're pro export, in the old mercantilist sense. They've spent the last 30 years heavily restricting trade access into and within China by foreign entities. They'll amass around a $900 billion to $1 trillion trade surplus with the EU over the five yea…

>Here's how the China trade illusion works (and the West keeps falling for it for some reason):

Plainly, its because most Western Governments (especially in the US) are heavily influenced by business interests via lobbies, PAC's etc. And Businesses simply want to use cheap labor in China to improve their bottom lines, even if that means the labor force in the US suffers as a result. They do not give a shit if China reneges on its WTO promises or destroys other Western companies.

Sometimes the kind of skilled labor force or logistical supply chain is simply not present in the US, or is too expensive to implement in the US.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#133

Post by barrkel » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #97

barrkel wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who says a fake Gucci is a crime, if the buyer knows it's fake. It's not enough for the buyer to know it's fake, everyone who sees it must also know it's fake, or else the fake is freeriding on the cachet generated by Gucci's marketing. People buy prominently branded fashion objects for their signalling value more than their utility value. Signalling which is easy to fake isn't very valuable. It's perfectly possibl…

It's worth having a dialogue about this. This specific type of signaling (flashing brands) is enforced by social rules that prevent chameleons. It would be pretty easy to imagine relaxing this - allowing products to appear externally in any form, as long as their nature is always recognizable to the owner (to prevent fraud). It's not clear this would be bad for society. IANAL, but it seems to me that plastering logos…

Fashion is but the extreme end, where 90% or more of the value is created by the branding and designer cachet, but it goes all the way to much more prosaic items, like washing machines (Miele) and DIY tools (Makita), where the brand is acting much more as protection for a promise of quality, yet the branding still has pose value - showing off your middle class credentials when someone is visiting your house or borrowing your tools. I don't think there's any real cut-off point where you get to say it's an abuse, because value is whatever we humans think is valuable, whether that's high quality or socially desirable.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#134

Post by Shivetya » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #123

watertom wrote: post #118

All tech companies need to re-think manufacturing in China, it was always a risky proposition, but not, you'll really be handing your IP over to the Chinese Government, and they'll be collecting IP from every company. It's time for tech manufacturing to move.

Where will it move to? Tech manufacturing is till pretty labor intensive, at least for the consumer electronics that I believe we are talking about. India probably has better IP laws on paper, but they're hardly ever enforced. The only real alternative seems to be that we reach such a level of automation that these factories can be viable in the West. Still, China's integration into the supply chain of global manufac…

Africa, even China has been moving that way.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#135

Post by iguy » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

detritus wrote: post #121

diego_moita wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first catastrophic failure of the Soviet Union was agriculture. When the West was beginning Borlaug's Green Revolution they were deep into Stalin's great famine, the Holodomor. Their inability to put bread on tables is at the root of their collapse. Most tragedies in China's recent history also have their cause on failure to produce food. I wonder how China is prepared to handle the impact Global Warming will hav…

Whilst I don't fundamentally disagree with your concerns, I'm not following the logic behind the Holodomor being the root of the Sovet Union's collapse, given that it occured 60 years prior?

The connection is that the USSR never managed to produce enough food. After the collapse and famine of collectivisation, mechanisation helped a bit, but never back to 1917 levels IIRC. From the 1960s there was little more growth, and a growing urban population.

The other half of the story is oil, which was more amenable to communist production. And exporting oil let them buy food from the west, for a while.

I highly recommend reading Yegor Gaidar on this topic:

http://www.aei.org/feature/the-soviet-collapse/

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#136

Post by pm90 » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

collyw wrote: post #106

alehul wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with parents who experienced the USSR, this is what really terrifies me about China's rise, and the reason I can't say I'm against a trade war if it hinders them more than us. Imagine a world in which China holds more control... a country with little legal or social respect for individualism, where your fate is 'centrally planned' by how impressive your maths skills are. By contrast, ~30% of American billi…

> where your fate is 'centrally planned' by how impressive your maths skills are Is it better than a fate that is generally determined by how rich your parents are? I give you that there are more options in the States, but this plays a huge role. Social mobility has been declining in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_... Not saying I prefer the Chinese model, but most people prefer t…

This isn't really a good comparison. The US has its problems and rising inequality has been a huge one for sure. But the biggest strength of the US has been its institutions and a society and economy that is based on laws. The independent Universities, Judiciary etc. are all extremely hard to get it right and the US has managed to do so (mostly; there are still many many problems e.g. school-prison pipeline, unequal treatment for minorities and poor communities etc.)

It seems much more likely to fix the US's problems with inequality rather than try to build all these institutions from scratch in China, at least in its current environment.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#137

Post by pm90 » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #77

qweqw123 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

arent's you romanticizing the US a bit much? the country was built by slaves. "the US will self-select for the ambitious and the inspired and those who desire freedom" this is just hogwash

Sorry if you found it offensive. I'm definitely romanticizing the U.S. quite a bit. At the same time, that romanticization is inspiring (at least to me) and largely true today when you compare us to countries like China, where you have much less control over your future. Also, moving to a country that provides greater freedom and opportunity at the cost of less of a social net and lower taxes will almost definitely s…

Forced labor camps still exist in China, to this day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#138

Post by justicezyx » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #134

pm90 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where will it move to? Tech manufacturing is till pretty labor intensive, at least for the consumer electronics that I believe we are talking about. India probably has better IP laws on paper, but they're hardly ever enforced. The only real alternative seems to be that we reach such a level of automation that these factories can be viable in the West. Still, China's integration into the supply chain of global manufac…

Africa, even China has been moving that way.

Look who's already there 2 decades ago and enjoying more influence than anyone else...

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#139

Post by justicezyx » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

jk2323 wrote: post #93

thisisit wrote: post #53

> Tencent Holdings Ltd., with nearly 1 billion users, reported that its net income almost doubled in the last quarter, to $3.3 billion. Alibaba Group Holding Ltd., which dominates online retail, is expecting growth of 55 percent this year. Investors may worry about Chinese debt, but they're giddy about Chinese tech. Anyone knows the SEC equivalent site for pulling revenue numbers for Chinese companies? If possible, d…

> Tencent Holdings Ltd., with nearly 1 billion users Sounds reasonable. I would start wondering if they claim 20 Billion users, but hey, you never now. Alibaba is also an outstanding company: http://brontecapital.blogspot.de/2015/10/alibaba-yeah-right-... http://brontecapital.blogspot.de/2015/09/job-interview-quest...

Well taobao pretty much is the majority of buying for many people. The blog posts are roughly as baseless as what it claims Jack Ma is.

Re: China Is Nationalizing Its Tech Sector

#140

Post by pm90 » Sat, Apr 14, 2018, 5:53 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #134

pm90 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where will it move to? Tech manufacturing is till pretty labor intensive, at least for the consumer electronics that I believe we are talking about. India probably has better IP laws on paper, but they're hardly ever enforced. The only real alternative seems to be that we reach such a level of automation that these factories can be viable in the West. Still, China's integration into the supply chain of global manufac…

Africa, even China has been moving that way.

Are you saying that African nations have laws that protect American IP? I think you're sorely mistaken.

China has been moving to Africa mostly for influence building and securing supplies of raw materials. It is a brilliant strategy, and I would argue that as long and they're helping improve the quality of life, an overall good thing.

China is NOT opening up high-tech manufacturing plants in Africa. In fact most of the infrastructure in Africa is sourced from Chinese Companies (e.g. railway coaches)