Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings • Hacker News Board

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#91

Post by Carioca » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:41 PM UTC

piracykills wrote: post #42

ashleyn wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one thing most people don't understand. If someone is selling you a financial instrument with >6-7% annual returns, it's as ridiculous as someone selling you a time machine or the cure to death. The top 500 companies by market cap don't do much better than 6-7% annually on average.

> >6-7% annual returns I wouldn't say quite that low, even S&P averages are often higher than that. But 48% monthly is going to be something like a >1000% yearly interest rate. You really don't get much more of a dead giveaway than that, at that point you're either a fool or you're gambling and hoping you get out before a greater fool does.

    >>> 100*1.48**12
    11044.360771961152

That's ELEVEN THOUSAND percent a year. 110x your money every year. That's enough to turn a dollar into 16 billion in 5 years.

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#92

Post by akvadrako » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #69

akvadrako wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7% is not ridiculous at all. twino.eu has been paying 10-13% backed by their own guarantees and a good income stream for several years.

So from looking at it twino is unsecured consumer lending? That seems pretty risky.

They charge much higher rates and have a good balance sheet, without much leverage. It’s not likely all their customers default at once, so the risk is lower then most instruments.

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#93

Post by johnchristopher » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:42 PM UTC

Can anyone help ? I have been trying to find a site that was submitted to HN a week or two ago. It was a fake site about a blockchain scheme but the author's intention was to highlight the shortcomings. It was before 1st april.

Thanks :).

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#94

Post by bandrami » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

NelsonMinar wrote: post #54

I'm also skeptical about the $660M number. To put that in perspective, Vietnam's GDP is $232B, so this is about 0.3% of Vietnamese GDP. 0.3% of the US GDP would be about $50 billion. FWIW most articles I'm finding source the $660M number to the linked Tuoi Tre News story. Their quote is "The victims said the company had conned them out of VND15 trillion (US$660.79 million)." https://tuoitrenews.vn/news/business/20180…

The "investors" (ahem) are no doubt counting their expected returns as the amount they are out, rather than their capital outlay.

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#95

Post by bandrami » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

hmahncke wrote: post #36

Rotdhizon wrote: post #17

At this point you really can feel no sympathy towards anyone who gets suckered into these types of scams. Same thing with facebook scams or instagram/snapchat pyramid schemes. If you really are that nice word for lacking intelligence or any ability to think for yourself , then you deserve what you get in terms of financial loss or social backlash. There isn't even a target demographic for this, people from all over t…

Actually, normal people do deserve protection from financial scams; and they don't deserve what they get just because they are not as sophisticated as a HN reader.

> not as sophisticated as a HN reader

God help us

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#96

Post by rdiddly » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:44 PM UTC

rebel wrote: post #22

ryanbertrand wrote: post #4

I don’t understand how we have all this information on the internet and people still get sucked into these scams. 48%...that is not a realistic guaranteed return! :/

10-15 years ago, I was certain that "bullshitting" people was going to disappear in the near future. It seemed inevitable that people would just pull out their phone and fact check any scam or lie. In a bizarre twist, it appears the opposite has happened.

Fact-checking is more convenient now, but there's still no antidote for a lie someone wants to believe.

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#97

Post by aje403 » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

908087 wrote: post #48

mkirklions wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, as someone that has been around for years, I have no sympathy for alt-coiners. We told them to trust BTC only. We told them HODL applies to BTC only. We told them 99% of alt coins die. They decided not to listen.

Is this post meant to be a joke? How are those people you guys were telling to buy in and "HODL" at ~$20k doing now?

Is this meant to be a joke?

Just wait until “institutional” money starts flooding in and the government converts to bitcoin and all oppressed nations are freed and then we will see who is laughing.

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#98

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #57

pjc50 wrote: post #2

> "Investors have been told that they would enjoy a profit rate of 48 percent a month from their initial investment, and recoup all investments after four months. People would also be rewarded with an eight percent commission for every new member they have introduced to the network." There's your red flags right there.

I would have stopped at ”ICO” .

It's just fascinating to me to see the cryptocurrency world gradually rediscover how financial regulation came to exist in the first place.

The US's capital and commodities markets started out very wild west. Over time, they've become highly regulated. Not because of mean, bad government, but mainly because market participants wanted regulation to drive out bad actors and increase market trust. That high level of ambient trust means that many non-US companies will list on US capital markets. It's a sign they pass more rigorous standards than elsewhere.

As you point out, "ICO" is becoming synonymous with "keep away". I've already seen many cryptocurrency participants lament the decline in brand value. If it hasn't happened already, I'm sure some bright spark will try to put together some sort of "Good Housekeeping seal of approval" for ICO-like vehicles in hopes of salvaging some sort of investor trust.

Although I hope otherwise, I suspect it won't work. Between the rising interest of regulators and the ability of non-scammy businesses to raise funds via more traditional means, I expect the bad will continue to drive out the good. Ponzi himself never really repented; in his last interview before his death, he said, "Even if they never got anything for it, it was cheap at that price. Without malice aforethought, I had given them the best show that was ever staged in their territory since the landing of the Pilgrims! It was easily worth fifteen million bucks to watch me put the thing over."

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#99

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:46 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #89

justicezyx wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noooooooooo Past performance is not an indication of future.

It’s not speculation - it’s a continuous income stream. Of course loan rates may go down but there is no risk about “performance”.

> loan rates may go down but there is no risk about “performance”

They can default. Twino is a Latvian LLC [1] that walks back its “guarantee” in section 7.4 of their User Agreement:

“TWINO shall not be held liable neither by the Investor, nor by the Assignee, or their legal successors or heirs, or any Third Parties in the event that the Loan Agreement is not performed by the Borrower completely or in any part thereof and if the Claim is not repaid and settled.”

If you think you have an investment with “no risk about performance,” you should not be investing your own money.

[1] https://www.twino.eu/ws/public/user-agreement-stream?lang=en

Re: Exit scammers run off with $660M in ICO earnings

#100

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 5:47 PM UTC

akvadrako wrote: post #92

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So from looking at it twino is unsecured consumer lending? That seems pretty risky.

They charge much higher rates and have a good balance sheet, without much leverage. It’s not likely all their customers default at once, so the risk is lower then most instruments.

>It’s not likely all their customers default at once, so the risk is lower then most instruments.

I mean I would question this. Of course that's true in a good economy but it's not true at all in a bad economy. To invest in this I think you need to ask what actually happens if there is a downturn.