U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#71

Post by toddBarkus » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #37

gizmo686 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have set hours. In my experience (as a software engineer) most companies take a hybrid approach, where they define a few core hours a day when you are supposed to be working (to assure that everyone is in at the same time for at least part of the day), but let you decide when to put in the majority of your hours.

Which is the basis of all salaried jobs ie you don't have fixed hours of work

A salaried structure is not the same thing as unset hours. This is a pretty standard misconception of people new to the workforce.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#72

Post by ed_balls » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

bkor wrote: post #28

chrischen wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent studies released show Rideshare drivers do make more than minimum wage (per hour).

A Dutch journalist drove for Uber for various months. They advertise that drivers can make loads of money. After expenses, the journalist barely made more than minimum wage. He also found that drivers often handed out business cards to encourage repeat customers to pay them directly (avoid taxes+Uber, etc). Further, customers abused drivers various times (e.g. it's used as a cheap moving service incl expecting you to…

The thing is he was a clueless journalist. Uber drivers with experience know where to hangout and which rides to take to maximize profit, know where drive to skip the traffic. They often drive when there is a surcharge and know when to take breaks. They know which car would be best for driving e.g. Skoda Rapid with factory LPG can reduce the cost of the fuel. They often share a car between 2 or 3 people. You can drive in New Year's Eve for 4x the price. There are a lot of ways to optimize.

What I know from talking to people is that the Uber drivers used to make above average wage after taxes and expenses. Now Uber takes a bigger cut and there is competition, so it's below average. Also you get a car with all expenses paid.

I think the problem is that in Europe the state covers healthcare and other benefit so Uber drivers are doing alright here.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#73

Post by Spivak » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 2:10 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #61

aksss wrote: post #42

Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. We drive up employment cost massively and wond…

What I will never understand is simply this: 1. A position is advertised as independent contractor 2. A person chooses to fill the job as an independent contractor while being compensated EXACTLY as agreed 3. The person sues to be considered an employee In situations like that, it’s really difficult for me to side with anyone but the business.

Because labels don't really matter. If they walk and talk like employees it doesn't really matter what the company calls them.

Check out Exhibits 2/3 and decide for yourself what side you think Uber drivers fall on.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2002/01/art1full.pdf

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#74

Post by WorldMaker » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 3:14 PM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #53

seanccox wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common misunderstanding about the relationships between companies, employees, and markets. Companies aren't the originators of jobs. Instead, demand for goods/services can reach a threshold that makes corporate organization for profit viable, and in so doing, requires that employees be hired to fill the demand. If there isn't demand for a good/service, then even a company that is providing it will be unable…

That demand is not in a vacuum, it also depends greatly on price. Increasing prices will reduce demand, and thereby reduce viability.

Except that it is not that simple either, because prices don't live in a vacuum. Demand is also affected by people's ability to spend. People with insecure lifestyles are less likely to spend. People whose entire lives are spent working just to make a livable wage aren't likely to spend much beyond bare necessities.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#75

Post by sokoloff » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 3:33 PM UTC

Slansitartop wrote: post #64

sokoloff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, I don't think I want the government to be in the business of stamping out the best deal that individuals have available. I know in this case, the assumption is that the deal offered will magically get substantially better. I don't think that generally works nearly as well as the abstract arguers argue.

> In general, I don't think I want the government to be in the business of stamping out the best deal that individuals have available. That's interesting framing. What if the "best deal that individuals have available" is objectively bad for them, exploitative, or one more step down in a "race to the bottom"? IIRC, The Grapes of Wrath described several "best deal[s] that individuals [had] available."

I'd prefer that, to the extent that they get involved, government work to provide better options rather than attempt to legislate away (what some people judge to be) bad options. [1]

An analogy that I think fits is the availability of abortions. For an individual pregnant woman who wishes to terminate the pregnancy, many people [likely including her] would view the option of having an abortion as an objectively bad yet best deal available outcome. It would be preferable to a wide swath of people's opinion had she never become pregnant in the first place, via education, wider availability of free/trivial cost birth control, whatever. In aggregate, the world would be a better place if the rate of abortion was reduced via these means (less physical and emotional stress, etc).

That doesn't extend to banning abortions, for that doesn't help the particular individual woman.

[1] - It is chiefly for this reason that I prefer something like a UBI over a minimum wage law. If someone's labor is only able to create $4 of value per hour, I would rather let them choose to do that than not be allowed or be forced to do that only as an entrepreneur. To reduce the amount of desperation that might "force" someone to do that, UBI takes some of the economic pressure off.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#76

Post by bln_wgc » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 3:38 PM UTC

aksss wrote: post #42

Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. We drive up employment cost massively and wond…

My question is: what do people think a "fair" hourly earnings level should be for a ridesharing driver? Given that it is a job which requires no educational or professional qualifications or experience, (only a driver's license and a clean background check), has an acceptance rate of basically 100%, and has flexibility to work any # of hours whenever you want (which surely has some $ utility) -- the $18-20 earnings per hour and $10-12 profit per hour averages that we've seen from multiple studies seems about right to me. That works out to $35k-50k a year, but without benefits.

I strongly believe everyone below ~$50-60k a year in the US should be paid more, but that's a separate conversation. In a world where teachers, firefighters, policemen, social workers etc. earn $35-50k a year + benefits, it feels wrong to complain about ridesharing drivers making $35k-50k a year without benefits.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#77

Post by drunkenmonkey » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

toddBarkus wrote: post #67

raducu wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't all of this true for a lot of jobs? Janitor, picking up fruits, garbage man and so on and so on. These are all jobs, these are people working, of course in this day and age everyone should make a decent living wage. Uber drivers are no more contractors than factory workers, they're not ride-sharing anything, they are (exploited) taxi drivers. This contractor/temp bullshit thing reeks of dark age mentality -- mi…

It's the aspect of personal choice that you're skipping over. Uber drivers made the choice to apply to work as "independent contractors" and agreed to the terms. A bastard child has no agency in the arrangement, but a mistress likely did agree to the arrangement. There's no fair expectation of the latter to be retroactively or otherwise considered a legal spouse, nor is it just for a contractor to sue to force others…

These people did not choose to be born poor.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#78

Post by pnw_hazor » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #58

aksss wrote: post #42

Ride-sharing, like a fry cook, was never meant to be a life’s career ambition. Jeez people. Folks are complaining that a fry cook can’t afford to buy a house and an Uber driver doesn’t get a 401(k). Wake up and smell the coffee. Let these positions continue to function as gap-filling opportunities for the young and those who need massive flexibility or want side-hustles. We drive up employment cost massively and wond…

> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living, ask anyone who’s driven cab. Lol, nope. My (single) mother drove a NYC taxi cab from 1978 through 1992 (after previous careers playing in orchestras, selling commercial real estate and being a corporate comptroller). The money she earned doing that raised two sons; she was able to invest in 6 medallions (though she was ripped off by her business par…

Not in Seattle or just about anywhere else the US.

Befofe Uber, unless you were at one of the few cabs stands, waiting 1 hour for a cab, that may or may not even show up was not uncommon.

Uber and Lyft have changed people's lives in most places they operate.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#79

Post by walshemj » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

toddBarkus wrote: post #71

walshemj wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the basis of all salaried jobs ie you don't have fixed hours of work

A salaried structure is not the same thing as unset hours. This is a pretty standard misconception of people new to the workforce.

It is in the UK and my last contract it explicity said "no fixed hours of work".

You can't be unprofessional about it and take the piss an not get sacked for cause but you cant micro mange and try and fire some one for being 5 mins late.

Re: U.S. judge says Uber drivers are not company's employees

#80

Post by busterarm » Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

pnw_hazor wrote: post #78

busterarm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Driving cars for hire has always been a shit way to make a living, ask anyone who’s driven cab. Lol, nope. My (single) mother drove a NYC taxi cab from 1978 through 1992 (after previous careers playing in orchestras, selling commercial real estate and being a corporate comptroller). The money she earned doing that raised two sons; she was able to invest in 6 medallions (though she was ripped off by her business par…

Not in Seattle or just about anywhere else the US. Befofe Uber, unless you were at one of the few cabs stands, waiting 1 hour for a cab, that may or may not even show up was not uncommon. Uber and Lyft have changed people's lives in most places they operate.

lolwut

How long you had to wait for a cab has nothing to do with driving a cab being a good income.

I've been in cabs pre-Uber all across the US. In places like Buffalo, Albany (any college town, really), all over Long Island, DC, LA, etc., I've talked to loads of cab drivers pre-Uber and they were making okay money.

I used to take 20-minute cab trips in Long Island that cost $100. The zone and per passenger system in Albany made fares very expensive. I knew a student cabbie in Buffalo who paid his tuition and then some ferrying drunks between the campus' and the bars.