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Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

arstechnica.com

251–260 of 376 posts

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#251

Sure it is. Gilead made 100 billion dollars curring Hep-C with seed research investments that were probably much less than 1 billion. So as long as this strong differential and potential for profit exists, drug companies feel competitive pressure to produce better treatments, irrespective of the fact that "milking" the pathology would yield them trillions collectively. It's effectively a "tragedy of the commons" of s…

Notably, the headline here oversells the actual content.

Goldman is rightly pointing out that gene therapy cures require heavy research but don't provide long term revenue streams.

It doesn't claim that they shouldn't be pursued, or that people should be kept sick. It doesn't even say gene therapy companies offering cures are bad investments! Rather, it points out that they offer high returns over limited durations, and will have to constantly hunt new treatments and target popular diseases. All of which, I note, describes Gilead perfectly.

I think you and Goldman are both right, while the headline writer is misunderstanding the actual memo.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#252
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the ideal in a world without any competition from other products. We don't live in that world so what you describe doesn't actually happen. We have more cures being developed now than ever before and it's very lucrative for the companies doing it.

Well, we certainly have exponentially more consumption of treatments for depression, allergies, obesity, pain, attention disorders, ... . That these are very lucrative for the companies supplying them (under a state-covered monopoly agreement) is also correct. Whether those constitute 'cures' is highly debatable.

We now have a cure for HCV, relapsing blood cancers, genetic forms of blindness, blood clotting disorders (in a year or two). I can give you more examples if you have trouble finding them.

And yes, the companies are giving a monopoly on one drug which allows competitors to create others similar to it. And the patent only gives about a decade of monopoly, after which the price drops to ~10% of what it was.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#253
And when you run out of patients to cure, just start making up new diseases to treat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herpes_simplex#Society_and_cul...

> Genital herpes simplex was not always stigmatised. It was merely a cold sore in an unusual place until the 1970s. As late as 1975, a study of "Psychological morbidity in a clinic for sexually transmitted disease" does not mention herpes simplex because at that time, no significant morbidity problem (i.e. mental anxiety or illness) was associated with the virus.

> Pedro Cuatrecasas states, "during the R&D of acyclovir (Zovirax), marketing [department of Burroughs Wellcome] insisted that there were 'no markets' for this compound. Most had hardly heard of genital herpes..." Thus, marketing the medical condition—separating the 'normal cold sore' from the 'stigmatized genital infection' was to become the key to marketing the drug, a process now known as 'disease mongering'.

> Since the creation of the herpes hype, some people experience negative feelings related to the condition following diagnosis, in particular if they have acquired the genital form of the disease. Feelings can include depression, fear of rejection, feelings of isolation, fear of being found out, and self-destructive feelings. These feelings usually lessen over time. Much of the hysteria and stigma surrounding herpes stems from a media campaign beginning in the late 1970s and peaking in the early 1980s. Multiple articles were worded in fear-mongering and anxiety-provoking terminology, such as the now-ubiquitous "attacks", "outbreaks", "victims", and "sufferers". At one point, the term "herpetic" even entered the popular lexicon. The articles were published by Reader's Digest, U.S. News, and Time magazine, among others. A made-for-TV movie was named Intimate Agony. The peak was when Time magazine had 'Herpes: The New Scarlet Letter' on the cover in August 1982, forever stigmatizing the word in the public mind

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#254
post #2

Thats why "we the people" need to have large part in developing new drugs and the care of people, this is nothing that can be left to the "market" in some hope that it will "work out".

Yet we have a ton of breakthrough drugs coming to market, most of which were created by private companies.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#255

The next time Goldman Sachs has to be bailed out they shouldn't be cured.

...are they wrong about this?

It feels very much like a "shoot the messenger" response. GS isn't saying this is a good outcome, or even that gene therapy companies don't deserve investment. They're just claiming that the existing revenue model for drug companies won't lead to success here. The obvious defense of that claim is "if it's true, saying it isn't a sin".

I mean, I'm not sure Goldman is intending to make an argument for public healthcare and state-funded medical R&D, but in practice that's what this is.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#256
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing to say the market won't solve problems. Innovations like Gilead's are inevitable. A cure might make less money than chronic treatment, but once a cure exists nobody is buying the treatment. It's rational to develop the cure if you want returns.

All possible pharmaceutical innovations are not "inevitable", at least not in any given time frame. It may be that pharma companies know which R&D approaches have a chance of producing a permanent cure, and which ones are more likely to result in a chronic treatment, and they focus their efforts on the former.

Yeah, no. You wouldn't have only 1 out of 100 drugs actually making it to market if companies knew which ones would work and which ones wouldn't.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#257
Imagine a corporate AI trained with empathetic traits as its primary goal and with its secondary goal, profits. I wonder if it would decide vaporizing certain individuals at Goldman Sachs would be more empathetic overall to humanity while improving their corporate image and stock evaluation.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#258
post #39

The story goes that in China, doctors used to be paid for keeping you healthy. When you got sick, they didn't get any money anymore. This sounds to me like a system with the proper incentives.

Sounds like doctor-as-insurer, financially speaking.

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#259

The 'ideal' drug from a business point of view not only not cures the patient long term, it offer a short term mitigation while increasing the risk on relapse and thus future recurring consumption of the treatment. At the same time it can be IP protected to block alternatives and has an insured third party collective payment coverage to guard against the treated running out of funds to afford the perpetual dependency…

This sounds cute, but isn't really true. In a competitive market, there is still an incentive to find cures. If company A has a treatment with the properties you describe on the market, and company B comes out with a cure, guess who's going to get all the business?

Re: Goldman Sachs questions whether curing patients is a sustainable business model

#260
post #143

The industry is being defined too narrow. The full industry includes insurers. Insurers have every reason to cure patients. Cured patients live longer. The longer you live the more years you pay premiums. The more premiums the higher your profits. So insurance is incenivized to put the money in the hands of those who cure rather than those who require insurance to fork up a fixed amount on an ongoing basis.

Do insurance companies really have this incentive? You can (and probably will) shop around and find a new insurer within a few years.

yes youll shop around for the one that'll keep you alive the longest
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