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Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

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Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#131
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of an article, sorry. A brief history from memory would be that during XHTML days the W3C essentially let the HTML spec languish and people weren't moving to XHTML (at best they were moving to XHTML-like HTML). So the WHATWG came along (mainly organised by the major browser vendors) and started the HTML spec moving again. This became part of what's known as HTML5. However WHATWG doesn't exactly make a "s…

To put a slightly different spin on the same story as perspective always colours the telling: W3C decided to deprecate HTML in favour of XHTML. Most of the web quickly moved to XHTML. One individual (an employee at Opera, then Mozilla, finally and currently Google) wrote an oddly influential opinion piece saying the the move to XHTML had been somehow harmful and pushed for the major browser vendors to form a rival no…

> Most of the web quickly moved to XHTML.

Most of the web didn't move to XHTML.

A lot of people who were interested in being standards compliant moved to XHTML 1.0 Transitional, which was the HTML compatibility subset, but they only ever served it and validated it as HTML, not XHTML, because if you served it as XHTML, one single stray The piece written by Hixie was influential because it was a wake up call that the direction the standards bodies were going in was pretty much fruitless, and that there could be a much better way to do it which wouldn't involve breaking compatibility with all of the existing content and would give web developers and users features that they actually wanted.

> As web developers, we should follow the WHATWG and ignore the W3C, because the W3C have lost the political battle for HTML and we need to get our stuff working on browsers, all of whom follow WHATWG. But that's an unfortunately pragmatic approach that shouldn't amount to acceptance.

I fail to see how there is anything unfortunate about this. What about rewriting everything in XHTML 2.0 (https://www.w3.org/TR/2010/NOTE-xhtml2-20101216/), and having to be extremely conscious of any possible stray 1. Consistent parsing support for existing content, and content that might have slight problems like stray 2. Standardization of things that people actually use to build web apps, like XMLHttpRequest and Canvas

3. Consistent handling of encodings between browsers, including encoding sniffing

4. Consistent handling of quirks mode vs. standards mode between browsers

5. Actually having browsers support compatibility with vendor-prefixed versions of features, because some browsers widely used introduced prefixed features that web developers actually started relying upon

And also, have you ever tried getting involved with the WHATWG process? I have, and I find that they are very receptive to intelligent discussion of issues.

What doesn't work well is to insist that you have a problem and that this particular solution must be used to address the problem; because a lot of times, it's easy to come up with some proposed solution but it then turns out that it's either a lot more complex in practice, your proposal does't fit in with the rest of the ecosystem well, or the problem can actually be solve just in tooling on top of HTML without having to change the spec at all and then wait for multiple browser vendors to all independently implement it.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#132

What a monumental waste of time. Why not just ignore W3C entirely? Seriously, what exactly are they going to do? Publish more? Sometimes it's better to not be nice and just let reality finish the job. So much effort taken from people who clearly have better things to do...

Yeah to be honest, at this point, it seems that the WHATWG members should just declare their withdrawal from W3C entirely, leaving it to die. It doesn't serve any purpose for the HTML standards any more.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#133
post #72

We know that Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla, consider the WHATWG to be the canonical version. We don't yet know whether the other 450+ W3C member organisations that represent the wider web platform agree with this position or not though. Honestly, do the other 450+ W3C member organizations matter? ( https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List )

No. They could matter, if they built a browser with competing market share. It's not a static equilibrium.

Users should have a voice too.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#134
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. They could matter, if they built a browser with competing market share. It's not a static equilibrium.

Users should have a voice too.

They do: they pick which browser to run, and thus give power to.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#135

time to use WASM to render the whole thing, ditch W3C. and all the players are there to make the change.

Yup, every page looks different anyway, calling megabytes of minified, obfuscated JavaScript. There is probably more in for the user. I guess then you only need , , and a subset of DOM.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#136
post #68
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was amazing. The new orthography is much simpler, and has far fewer insane rules or exceptions. And most people that have seen the transition, but were born after it, or went to school during it, agree. I know it can work on this scale, I’ve seen it IRL. Many languages do stuff like this, German has the council of German language, and French has their Academy. You can do the same on the web. You just need to have…

The idea that a bunch of standards group officials can decide for the world that web pages are simply lightweight content publishing mechanisms and that real applications should be build exclusively in Flash and that that worldview can be ratified and mandated by browser vendors does not seem amazing to me. At any rate: the Internet is a market system, not a top-down autocracy.

The Internet is a network. The web is an oligopoly. Google, Google-by-proxy, and Apple fill the dog bowl, and the rest of us eat from it because it is there.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To put a slightly different spin on the same story as perspective always colours the telling: W3C decided to deprecate HTML in favour of XHTML. Most of the web quickly moved to XHTML. One individual (an employee at Opera, then Mozilla, finally and currently Google) wrote an oddly influential opinion piece saying the the move to XHTML had been somehow harmful and pushed for the major browser vendors to form a rival no…

> Most of the web quickly moved to XHTML. This simply is not true. The web moved to an XHTML-like dialect of HTML which was still served as text/html and browsers interpreted it as "HTML soup" because actually serving pages as application/xhtml+xml would have broken the majority of the web because browsers would actually validate them and refuse to display a page at all if there was even a single missing close tag.

Oh I remember this period of time and damn this is true. I think about 80% of the pages on the web during a certain time period had that tramp-stamp of XHTML Validated button somewhere on the page.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#138
post #51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that standards groups exist to push for top-down reconcepting of how the world should work is a common one, and is also a good reason why standards groups fail. Your idea of what the best outcome is won't be the same as every other stakeholders, and no one stakeholder will have exactly the same idea of the best outcome as the market will. Ultimately, the market will win, no matter what your standards group s…

When I was a child in elementary school, a standards committee decided to change my native language. They replaced the spelling of most words, and many grammatical rules. We were forced to obey these changes, any use of the old rules was counted as mistake in school. Back then, many older books were still using the old rules. By the time I left high school, almost no books with the old rules were left. All had been r…

If you want a more tech-related example, Jobs said "no flash on iPhones", and in a few years... poof! no flash.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#139

We know that Apple, Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla, consider the WHATWG to be the canonical version. We don't yet know whether the other 450+ W3C member organisations that represent the wider web platform agree with this position or not though. Honestly, do the other 450+ W3C member organizations matter? ( https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List )

I was about to say no, but then I clicked the link and the first entry I saw is an organisation I happen to know (Access-for-All, Swiss Foundation), a foundation dealing with accessible technologies. They're doing a lot of good work with educating developers here in Switzerland.

Re: Microsoft, Google, Mozilla, and Apple Object to W3C Fork of DOM Spec

#140

time to use WASM to render the whole thing, ditch W3C. and all the players are there to make the change.

Yup, every page looks different anyway, calling megabytes of minified, obfuscated JavaScript. There is probably more in for the user. I guess then you only need , , and a subset of DOM.

And you'd need to handle accessibility considerations, and font and encoding support, and a flexible layout engine, and multiple input methods, and scrolling, and search engine standardization, and more all yourself.

By the time you handle most of it, all you've done is make a wildly more complicated version of the DOM.

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