Live data from Hacker News

Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

theguardian.com

261–263 of 263 posts

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#261
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do you suggest we solve the problem without collective actions? What "changes on an individual level" do you think need to occur, and how do you expect them to come about? Because to me, it seems like the individualist's prescription is just to judge people for making bad choices and hope they make better ones in future.

The individual is the functional unit of society. When you choose to address society, what you’re really doing, if it’s going to work, is addressing the individuals of that society. Address a bunch of individuals. Or address one individual and have him address 2 people he knows. Etc. More than one way to skin a cat... TLDR; to skin a society of cats, one way or another, each individual cat needs to get skinned.

Saying "society is just individuals" is reductive to the point of uselessness though. People exist within a system of social and economic realities, and the choices they make, indeed the choices they can make, are shaped by that system.

And therefore, many choices which would improve society only make sense as collective choices. An individual deciding whether to delete their facebook account is deciding between privacy violation or social isolation. In that context, the privacy violation might actually be the better choice for the individual.

When people criticise that choice, they're noticing that collectively it would be better if everyone made a different choice. But it's pointless to blame individuals for not making a collective choice. If we actually want people to make that choice, we need to act collectively, and transition away from facebook in a coordinated way.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#263
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individual is the functional unit of society. When you choose to address society, what you’re really doing, if it’s going to work, is addressing the individuals of that society. Address a bunch of individuals. Or address one individual and have him address 2 people he knows. Etc. More than one way to skin a cat... TLDR; to skin a society of cats, one way or another, each individual cat needs to get skinned.

Saying "society is just individuals" is reductive to the point of uselessness though. People exist within a system of social and economic realities, and the choices they make, indeed the choices they can make, are shaped by that system. And therefore, many choices which would improve society only make sense as collective choices. An individual deciding whether to delete their facebook account is deciding between priv…

???

Re-read what I wrote, and then name something I wrote that goes against what you have said about collective action and coordination.

For starters, I did not say “society is just individuals.” I said that the individual is the functional unit of society. When you want society to act on something, what you’re really saying is that you want individuals of a group to act on that, collectively.

When you command an army you’re effectively commanding each individual soldier.. as the soldier is the functional unit of the army. When you want the army to move from one side of the valley to the other, what that translates to is for each individual soldier to move from one side of the valley to the other.

If someone is petitioning for social change and fails to lead individuals - the functional units - to change, then there’s not much happening at all besides someone blowing hot air at “society”

Post reply on HN