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Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

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Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#571

Post by fmihaila »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #541
fmihaila wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oct'16 video on https://www.tesla.com/autopilot says Driver is only there for legal reasons That may come back to haunt them. For those not clicking it, the above link goes to a video showing the Autopilot in action. The white-on-black, full-screen text prefacing the demo is not doing them any favours in the debate about their messaging (all-caps are in the original): "THE PERSON IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT IS ONLY THERE…

Car demos are almost always "do not attempt" and violating this or that, so when they say the driver wasn't necessary for the demo I don't personally extrapolate that to say anything about real life.

> Car demos are almost always "do not attempt" and violating this or that

Ads like those explicitly include 'do not attempt' disclaimers; this video does not. The statement it does include only emphasizes how advanced the system is.

> so when they say the driver wasn't necessary for the demo I don't personally extrapolate that to say anything about real life.

You do not, but the question is how many jurors would see it the same way when a highly skilled lawyer argues that this video is misleading, as part of his efforts to hurt Tesla in a liability suit.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#572

Post by axaxs »

This is so frustrating to me. 50 years ago we had the ability to fly to the moon. A played out trope, sure. But today we can't even do a basic 'dont run into shit' on a perfectly clear day. Physics in this way is and has been a solved problem for decades. The fact that people are dying from hitting stationary objects should be criminal. At lightest, they should bar these companies from even participating.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#573

Post by neya »

Animats wrote: post #552

Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles. Here's a good example - a Tesla on autopilot crashing into a temporary road barrier which required a lane change.[1] This is a view from the dashcam of the vehicle behind the Tesla. At 00:21, things look norm…

> Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving.

I often wonder if auto-pilot is truly 100% auto-pilot if it requires you to keep an eye out for its "Hey maybe I'll screw it up, so please keep a watch on me"

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#574

Post by jijojv »

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/31/apples-steve-wozniak-doesnt-... "Man you have got to be ready — it makes mistakes, it loses track of the lane lines. You have to be on your toes all the time," says Wozniak. "All Tesla did is say, 'It is beta so we are not responsible. It doesn't necessarily work, so you have to be in control.'

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#575

Post by rspeer »

ricardobeat wrote: post #51
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, thats terse, especially considering "the early version" of Autopilot was using Mobileye's superior product!

I'm under the impression it was established that Mobileye's "superior" approach of hand-coding every possible situation would not cut it for full self-driving; they eschew deep learning in favor of having hundreds of people manually annotating images to uncover corner cases, plus a high reliance on maps, and were not happy with the level of automation Tesla wanted to push the system into.

Can you blame them for not being happy with that? Why put "superior" in quotes if they were doing a better job?

It sounds like Mobileye knows what it takes to make self-driving work given present technology, and Tesla didn't believe them and thought they were doing something so simple that their job could be automated.

Every AI system that works and makes important decisions has corner cases that are designed by humans. Turns out that computer programmers do a job that matters!

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#576

Post by axaxs »

jijojv wrote: post #574

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/31/apples-steve-wozniak-doesnt-... "Man you have got to be ready — it makes mistakes, it loses track of the lane lines. You have to be on your toes all the time," says Wozniak. "All Tesla did is say, 'It is beta so we are not responsible. It doesn't necessarily work, so you have to be in control.'

You don't beta test with human lives.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#578

Post by txcwpalpha »

Matheus28 wrote: post #533
txcwpalpha wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it is absolutely not. I'm not sure why you keep posting this as if it is definitive. Let me put it very clearly for you: it is not acceptable, in any shape or manner, to expect your users to have to "save themselves" from your product killing them every 5 seconds. If your product requires that, it is a bad product . Furthermore, your entire argument of "it's just a level 2 system..." falls apart when you consider…

>Let me put it very clearly for you: it is not acceptable, in any shape or manner, to expect your users to have to "save themselves" from your product killing them every 5 seconds. If your product requires that, it is a bad product. Yes it is. Otherwise you're asking all car manufacturers to stop selling cars. "I have to constantly keep my car between the lines or I'll cause an accident" is an acceptable standard. Th…

>That's how every car on the road works today. The liability is on the user to operate it properly.

No, it is not. No other car on the market today actively steers you toward an obstacle. Every non-autopilot car would require the driver (or another human actor, such as another driver) to first put themselves in a dangerous situation before requiring they get themselves out of it. Tesla autopilot, on the other hand, puts the driver in a dangerous situation on it's own. That is the crucial, fundamental difference.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#580

Post by crabasa »

Animats wrote: post #552

Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles. Here's a good example - a Tesla on autopilot crashing into a temporary road barrier which required a lane change.[1] This is a view from the dashcam of the vehicle behind the Tesla. At 00:21, things look norm…

>> Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving.

If this was true, wouldn't Tesla vehicles have a higher rate of crashes, all things being equal? Is there any evidence that this is the case?

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