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Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

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Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#331

Post by Animats »

chaostheory wrote: post #238
patcheudor wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>t's a tool to help attentive drivers avoid accidents that might have otherwise occurred. This needs far more discussion. I just don't buy it. I don't believe that you can have a car engaged in auto-drive mode and remain attentive. I think our psychology won't allow it. When driving, I find that I must be engaged and on long trips I don't even enable cruise control because taking the accelerator input away from me is…

> This needs far more discussion. I just don't buy it. I don't believe that you can have a car engaged in auto-drive mode and remain attentive. I think our psychology won't allow it. Does anyone know of psychology studies that measure human reaction time and skill when sometime like autopilot is engaged most of the time? I remember taking part in a similar study at Georgia Tech that involved firing at a target using…

Does anyone know of psychology studies that measure human reaction time and skill when sometime like autopilot is engaged most of the time?

Yes. That's been much studied in the aviation community.[1] NASA has the Multi-Attribute Test Battery to explicitly study this.[2] It runs on Windows with a joystick, and is available from NASA. The person being tested has several tasks, one of which is simply to keep a marker on target with the joystick as the marker drifts. This simulates the most basic flying task - flying straight and level. This task can be put on "autopilot", and when the marker drifts, the "autopilot" will simulate moving the joystick to correct the position.

But sometimes the "autopilot" fails, and the marker starts drifting. The person being tested is supposed to notice this and take over. How long that takes is measured. That's exactly the situation which applies with Tesla's "autopilot".

There are many studies using MATB. See the references. This is well explored territory in aviation.

[1] http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~archerj/Course%20Deliverables/IE%... [2] https://matb.larc.nasa.gov/software/

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#332

Post by danso »

kolpa wrote: post #298
danso wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text at the top of the homepage for Tesla Autopilot is this: > Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. Whatever theory you have for Tesla's naming of their feature, it doesn't match with their marketing.

If autopilot crashes at a lower rate than the average driver, they are correct, but autopilot+attentive driver would still be better than either alone.

The current thread is about what Tesla means by use of "autopilot". The parent commenter was telling us that Tesla only intends for it to have the same meaning as it does in aviation. My response is pointing out how Tesla seems to imply "autopilot" involves "full self-driving".

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#333

Post by nightski »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #284
Dylan16807 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you going to having a train running every few minutes to really make the delays comparable? And you need a fleet of rental cars so that people can actually get to their destination. What's the relative cost of all that vs. pavement?

I'm pretty sure that the rail is more expensive... until you start paying for the gas for all the cars. Railroads kill highways on energy efficiency. If the cars are electric, I'm less sure.

Not to mention cars going 150 MPH. I can't imagine the fuel expenditure for that kind of commute. Efficiency starts dropping dramatically at 55+.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#334

Post by greglindahl »

gamblor956 wrote: post #316
greglindahl wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm asking for data. The data doesn't care what you and I think. And the data will reflect what Tesla drivers think, as opposed to people who've only heard Tesla's marketing. Tesla drivers get reminded about the limitations of the autopilot system each time they enable it.

The literally hundreds of posts on HN about it being a problem are data that it is. And that's a tech-savvy crowd that theoretically would know the limitations of the system.

There are literally hundreds of posts on HN claiming that it's a problem. That's data for it being a commonly-held belief, not data for it being a problem with actual Tesla drivers.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#335

Post by agumonkey »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #59

I used to be in awe of Teslas and I have always been a big fan of Musk, and even after the crash I still imagined myself one day buying a Tesla. But after this response, I've completely lost respect for the company, for Musk, and I don't think I'll ever buy one or advocate for someone buying one. The driver had previously reported to Tesla 7 to 10 times that there was an issue with autopilot, but Tesla told him "no t…

I didn't know Tesla had an exchange with that person over previous occurences of the problem.

I believe Tesla should take responsibilities for this. But I think they fear this could just kill their entire company if they make a PA regarding safety being their fault.

All in all, it's not right, not long ago they were claiming to have the highest safety ratings, now they're in denial over a death.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#336

Post by theclaw »

ceejayoz wrote: post #138
lucio wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would start by quoting Stalin...

It's not like Stalin never had anything fair/correct/smart to say. Guy had some great quotes. "A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron." "We think that a powerful and vigorous movement is impossible without differences - 'true conformity' is possible only in the cemetery." "Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed."

Whether or not Stalin actually said it, the quote is intended to excuse the murder of thousands - it's carelessly misinterpreted here.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#337

Post by chaostheory »

Animats wrote: post #331
chaostheory wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This needs far more discussion. I just don't buy it. I don't believe that you can have a car engaged in auto-drive mode and remain attentive. I think our psychology won't allow it. Does anyone know of psychology studies that measure human reaction time and skill when sometime like autopilot is engaged most of the time? I remember taking part in a similar study at Georgia Tech that involved firing at a target using…

Does anyone know of psychology studies that measure human reaction time and skill when sometime like autopilot is engaged most of the time? Yes. That's been much studied in the aviation community.[1] NASA has the Multi-Attribute Test Battery to explicitly study this.[2] It runs on Windows with a joystick, and is available from NASA. The person being tested has several tasks, one of which is simply to keep a marker on…

This sounds identical to the study I participated in except it was conducted by Georgia Tech and not NASA.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#338

Post by gamblor956 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #213
maxerickson wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, if the fault isn't reasonable the manufacturer is usually held responsible. A recent example is the ignition switch recall that old GM had. It took operator action to trigger the fault, but GM still repaired the faulty cars and paid liability claims.

Poor example, as GM knew of the defect for a decade and did not notify customers of the defect until a lawsuit generating significant internal document discovery led to the public disclosure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch...

It's actually a perfect example. Car manufacturer knew of the flaw and did not tell customers about it. Customer then died as a result.

Expect Tesla to pay a massive fine as a result of this. Assuming, of course that they survive the lawsuit and the loss of buyers...

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#339

Post by nightski »

krrrh wrote: post #124
Gerardo1 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This same thing can be said of auto-pilot in planes. Not saying it invalidates your argument, just that there are pretty wide-reaching consequences to that idea.

This comparison really only works if you mean engaging autopilot with a bunch of other planes flying in close formation and if clouds were made of steel and concrete. Most of the time that autopilot is engaged on a flight there is next to zero risk of a collision. Commercial pilots also get a lot of training specifically related to what autopilot is and isn’t appropriate for.

Even as a private pilot you are taught to continuously scan your instruments and surroundings as you fly through the air with autopilot enabled. Flight training is much more extensive than driving tests (although still not too bad) and they really drive procedures into you.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#340

Post by ilitirit »

Given the facts, who/what else would be to blame?

This IMO has more to do with PR than anything else.

Well... marketing too. I've never felt comfortable with the term "auto pilot" as it is used in the context of Tesla's vehicles. This is potentially a finnicky topic, but I think there should be better standards and legislation around what can be reasonably marketed as "auto pilot".

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