Live data from Hacker News

Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

theguardian.com

251–260 of 263 posts

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook never was part of 'the free internet', in fact it is a force strongly against the free internet. That's the point. Imagine the result of all this is a piece of legislation that doesn't hamper Facebook in any significant way but imposes large fixed compliance costs on tech companies. Facebook is huge, they pay the costs without even noticing. People who want to dethrone Facebook, or replace it with some dec…

> some decentralized alternative that actually protects privacy, are killed in the cradle by the new fixed overhead I don't follow you, how would a decentralized (and presumably non commercial) alternative be affected by this? Besides the fact that legislation is typically a local affair Facebook would have an advantage versus another commercial player, and whoever wrote the law would most likely focus on those aspec…

> I don't follow you, how would a decentralized (and presumably non commercial) alternative be affected by this?

Are you anticipating a specific exemption for non-commercial operations? That hasn't been true historically.

For example, the notice and takedown rules in the DMCA require you to register an agent with the copyright office. There is no good reason for this when you have the info listed right on your site, but it makes a great trap for the unwary for anyone without the resources to hire a lawyer to tell them that, and causes grief for distributed networks where it isn't clear who should have to register and it almost certainly isn't the case that every participant actually has. Because the law came about as a negotiation between the big players with nobody even considering how it would affect small businesses and individuals or network architectures different from the then-dominant ones.

Or the regulatory nightmare in finance that has successfully destroyed a huge number of small nonprofit credit unions, or the medical industry where none shall enter without an entire law firm on retainer, etc.

People have just gotten used to it so they don't see what's missing. The idea that any individual or even pair of individuals could conduct a medical trial in today's environment is quite ridiculous, so nobody expects it to happen and then no one is surprised when it doesn't. But that was once the source of most of the progress in modern medicine before it was de facto prohibited by law.

It may be true that federated systems won't be affected because of a lack of enforcement, but that's cold comfort. Plenty will opt out of a system where they have to break the law in order to operate, even if the law is almost never enforced. And laws that everyone violates but are almost never enforced are inherently dangerous because they give the government a pretext to go after whoever they want for unrelated and pernicious reasons.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#252
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should have had subject matter experts asking the questions. Instead there were people had no idea what they were talking about, wasting time on shout-outs to their sons/nephews or whomever (I was only able to follow it for a minute). The CEO needed to be under oath so that lying would carry consequences, and they needed someone who could cut through the BS of how some of the answers were worded. We need more pr…

But it would be more important for those engineers would also need to have a solid understanding of the law, which is a highly detailed and nuanced field. I think this isn't an implementable solution. Maybe you get a more-technically-knowledgable version of Ron Wyden who then sits on several subcommittees, but you're not going to get 10% of the Senate to be software engineers. After all, one could just as easily say…

I think you're underestimating the many engineers out there who deal with contracts, and the laws regarding their profession.

> one could just as easily say that we need more senators who are nurses, petroleum engineers, hydrological engineers, pilots, soldiers, teachers, tax accountants, actuaries...

I agree! That's what my "etc" was for. I would love to see more everyday people run for office so our elected officials can be a better representation of the everyday people they're supposed to represent.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicle safety regulations.

There aren’t very many small or startup auto makers, so it’s hard to assert that safety regulations don’t function as a barrier to entry. Not that it isn’t a good barrier to have!

> There aren’t very many small or startup auto makers, so it’s hard to assert that safety regulations don’t function as a barrier to entry.

Well actually...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_man...

Notice the number created before vs. after 1967, when the feds started passing vehicle safety regulations.

Also notice how many of those created after 1967 (e.g. Geo, Saturn, Hummer) aren't actually independent, they're just retired marks of the existing incumbents.

Because the safety regulations are designed for huge companies. The companies literally provide cars to the government to be crashed for testing purposes, because destroying a few cars is nothing to Ford or GM.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#254
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What type of discovery would you like to make? It seems to me that whatever fb has they control and do with as they please and have the money for lobbyists and lawyers to corporate-splain their actions away and pay the occasional fine (cost of doing business). I'm having a hard time understanding why any of what is known is at all a surprise to someone who understands tech.

If a qualified person was asking the questions, the public would then know the reality of the situation, as well as get a decent look into how honest Mr. Zuckerberg is. I suspect what we watched was fairly well scripted theater, right down to the humiliating booster seat as well as the talking points cheat sheet that he "accidentally" let a reporter get a picture of. This wasn't about discovery, truth, or justice, it…

I am of the opinion that if we let FB continue in its reckless treatment of its users data, people will eventually flock to a better platform when one emerges. UseNet/IRC were much better social platforms for privacy, but the ease of use/convenience much worse.

I am glad of this whole debacle simply because people won't act like I'm a freak anymore just because I won't use FB.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#255
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or make it illegal to harvest this type of information without express consent from the first party. Meaning that in order for the game to gather the contact info it must ask everyone in your contacts list if it's okay. It doesn't stop your friends from oversharing but it creates a contract between you and the party requesting your information so there's now some legal recourse for how they use your data. And if the…

So then would it be impossible for me to write down your phone number in my phone, without my phone's contact list app asking you for permission first? That seems kind of excessive.

In my first post above I am arguing against this. So no.

What I am arguing for is that it should be against the law for third party apps to copy your contact details from someone else's phone without your permission.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt this is true, given how poorly targeted advertising performs, how much stuff credit-reporting agencies get wrong, and how much stuff intelligence services miss. I'm sure they have a lot of data, but like anyone else, it's dirty data, and it's difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from it.

What measure of proof do you require? PS- One of Seisent's selling points was helping to solve cold cases. The successful example I remember was matching MOs from a set of crimes in multiple areas and then identifying all the persons matching the profile who could also be in those areas at those times.

> What measure of proof do you require?

How about a single targeted advert for a product I want to buy? (Note: products I already bought and then start seeing tons of advertisements for don't count)

> PS- One of Seisent's selling points was helping to solve cold cases.

Did it actually help solve those cases? I haven't heard of any dramatic drops in unsolved murders, or huge numbers of cold cases being closed.

If they really do "effectively know everything about everybody", they're keeping damn quiet about it.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#257

I was struck that on the surface it looked quite adversarial. Senators were trying to ask fairly pointed questions (despite any technical ignorance). But underneath the surface, the two parties here have fairly well aligned goals -- less freedom on the Internet. The senators want to show that they're doing something, and Facebook welcomes regulation in order to suffocate would-be competitors with it. I'm sure they're…

I don't really understand what the big deal is here. All this data was given to facebook. Ads are inherently propaganda, how is the use of this data any different? If I decide in my terms of service that i can use your data however i want, including mining your messages and selling it to an evil dictator, i should be able to do that. If you agree, you are free to use my plateform, if not, thats fine too, you can't. me, and a group of people whom i've paid have developed this app, how can you restrict my right to do as i please with everything that comes out of it? If i want to shut down facebook tomorrow, i can. If it's against what is in my terms of service, sue the living shit out of me, and force me to update my terms to reflect reality or delete the app.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chalking everything up to “society” is a great way to never get anything solved. Change starts with oneself. Connecting on an individual level, making changes on an individual level, understanding and valuing even minute consequences on the individual level - that’s what going to bring about permanent change. Not more groupthink. We have brains and decision-making abilities for a reason. Yes, I understand society has…

So how do you suggest we solve the problem without collective actions? What "changes on an individual level" do you think need to occur, and how do you expect them to come about? Because to me, it seems like the individualist's prescription is just to judge people for making bad choices and hope they make better ones in future.

The individual is the functional unit of society.

When you choose to address society, what you’re really doing, if it’s going to work, is addressing the individuals of that society.

Address a bunch of individuals. Or address one individual and have him address 2 people he knows. Etc. More than one way to skin a cat...

TLDR; to skin a society of cats, one way or another, each individual cat needs to get skinned.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#259
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook never was part of 'the free internet', in fact it is a force strongly against the free internet. That's the point. Imagine the result of all this is a piece of legislation that doesn't hamper Facebook in any significant way but imposes large fixed compliance costs on tech companies. Facebook is huge, they pay the costs without even noticing. People who want to dethrone Facebook, or replace it with some dec…

Ok so what’s the solution? Is the only other option no regulation and accepting the fact that what Cambridge Analytica did is going to be the way things are done from now on? Just wondering what the constructive path for advocacy is now.

> Ok so what’s the solution? Is the only other option no regulation and accepting the fact that what Cambridge Analytica did is going to be the way things are done from now on? Just wondering what the constructive path for advocacy is now.

A little antitrust enforcement certainly wouldn't hurt -- stop letting Facebook buy its competitors. More competition would do two things. First, less people on each network, so less impact for each mistake. Second, more competition creates market pressure. It's much more problematic for Facebook to be able to do this and get away with it because they have a monopoly and users have no alternative, than for them to do this and lose all their users to a vibrant competitive marketplace, serving as a lesson to anyone who would do the same thing.

It also wouldn't hurt if the government would just overtly support decentralized systems. The internet itself, The Tor Project and most of the other decentralized technologies we have all came out of government research grants. Which we don't do nearly as much as we used to in this space.

We could also roll back some of the existing bad laws -- like SESTA -- that are already making it harder for small players to compete.

Re: Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook hearing was a sham

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That’s assuming the regulations work instead of just throw obstacles in the way of new companies. Not only that, laws have a tendency to set a particular model in stone. The model large companies use is to collect everything they possibly can and then use bureaucratic processes to control access. The model small companies and individuals use is to minimize the data they collect and use technical means to ensure tha…

> The model small companies and individuals use is to minimize the data they collect and use technical means to ensure that the company has no access to the customer's data at all. There have been a zillion startups that have had collecting user data baked into their business model.

> There have been a zillion startups that have had collecting user data baked into their business model.

And they can rot like Facebook. Nobody is trying to save them. The problem is you're destroying anyone whose model isn't that.

Post reply on HN