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Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

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Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#101

Post by samastur »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #15
VeejayRampay wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The double standard when it comes to Python is mindblowing. No other language could have gotten away with such ridiculous fragmentation and perf regression for such a long period of time.

Double standards by whom?? Every other article or comment I’ve read since basically py3+1y has been incredibly negative about it. The only positive news about Python, recently, seems from people who were not around since the py2 days. Data science is where it’s at now, but it used to be massive and ubiquitous. Golang came at a time where public perception of Python was down the drain, and ate a big chunk of its lunch…

I've been around since ~1.5 and have no idea what you are talking about. I suspect our perception is very much coloured by where and whom you are hanging out with.

Agree that there was never a shortage of negative articles about py2/py3 transition. Fairly certain Golang success was down to its advantages more than Python's perception who's use has grown through all this time.

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#102

Post by notspanishflu »

Narann wrote: post #95
dajonker wrote: post #3

This is good: - Python 2 support officially ends somewhere in 2020 - most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 - Python 3.7 performs about as well as 2.7 with future release expected to be better Although it still took way too long, if you consider Python 3.0 was released about 10 years ago.

> most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 I often see this but I think it's a perception from the Internet/web world. I work for CGI, all (I'm not kidding) our softwares (we have many) are 2.7. You will never see them used "on the web/Internet/forum/network" place but the day-to-day job of millions of peoples in the industry is 2.7. And we are a tiny focused industry. So I'm sure there is many other in…

I know some "tiny focused industry" that's still using DOS.

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#103

Post by audiolion »

Narann wrote: post #95
dajonker wrote: post #3

This is good: - Python 2 support officially ends somewhere in 2020 - most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 - Python 3.7 performs about as well as 2.7 with future release expected to be better Although it still took way too long, if you consider Python 3.0 was released about 10 years ago.

> most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 I often see this but I think it's a perception from the Internet/web world. I work for CGI, all (I'm not kidding) our softwares (we have many) are 2.7. You will never see them used "on the web/Internet/forum/network" place but the day-to-day job of millions of peoples in the industry is 2.7. And we are a tiny focused industry. So I'm sure there is many other in…

If you arent using the packages that most people use, and decided to roll your own, then it is on you to upgrade. Not seeing the issue here of course your custom niche libraries havent been upgraded if you havent been diligent.

The py2 end of life is supposed to give your manager hard reasons to switch. But if you never use pypi packages and dont interact with the web, you dont need to upgrade, as you don't need to install packages that might be 3 only and you dont have potential for security vulnerabilities.

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#104

Post by lizmat »

petre wrote: post #93
oblio wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Python 3 was not brave enough, to be honest, to future proof Python: * an optional type system without hacks was not introduced (types in comments, really?) * the GIL was not removed or at least a solid parallelism story was not included, one that would allow Python to use all cores on a system while sharing, if needed, memory * no true performance improving changes were made; by this I mean stuff that improv…

Perl6 was brave enough. It became a totally different language and lost much of its user base who moved on to Python, Ruby and to a lesser extent Node. From what I saw, Python3 doesn't have type hints but it at least warns when you try to do stuff which involves magic, such as trying to increment a float. Perl6 doesn't warn in those cases. If you use type inferrence it just happily goes ahead and uses the equivalent…

> If you use ugly C-style loops instead of nicer native for loops, your loop will run 2x faster.

This is what I currently consider a workaround. At the moment if you have a constant endpoint and it fits in a native int, such as `for ^10`, it is already highly optimized and actually runs faster than the equivalent in Perl 5. That is not done yet where the endpoint is a native int variable. :-(

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#106

Post by mratzloff »

hyperpallium wrote: post #27
VeejayRampay wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The double standard when it comes to Python is mindblowing. No other language could have gotten away with such ridiculous fragmentation and perf regression for such a long period of time.

I think it's the opposite. When other languages make incompatible changes, they have serious problems (e.g perl6). Previous versions of python were back-compatible. Java versions stress back-compatibility. I don't know if HN can find any counter-examples, of a language that thrived through an incompatible, code-breaking upgrade. Python has done everything possible to avoid this fate, by maintaining 2.7. And I'm not e…

I don't know if HN can find any counter-examples, of a language that thrived through an incompatible, code-breaking upgrade.

Of course. Swift 3 is one example. Ruby 1.9, as others have pointed out, is another.

PHP is yet another, and perhaps more relevant because it is close to contemperaneous. It had its "Python 3 moment" with the migration to PHP 5. Lots of BC breakages.[0] That transition took about 3-4 years for most.[1] Most users are now on the current major version, 7, and the remainder on 5 are mostly using its latest release (EOL is EOY). No one uses 4.

[0] https://secure.php.net/manual/en/migration5.php

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20110720002753/http://www.gophp5...

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#107

Post by bitL »

dajonker wrote: post #3

This is good: - Python 2 support officially ends somewhere in 2020 - most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 - Python 3.7 performs about as well as 2.7 with future release expected to be better Although it still took way too long, if you consider Python 3.0 was released about 10 years ago.

You forgot one:

- 90% of business code is written in Python 2.x

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#108

Post by sametmax »

Narann wrote: post #95
dajonker wrote: post #3

This is good: - Python 2 support officially ends somewhere in 2020 - most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 - Python 3.7 performs about as well as 2.7 with future release expected to be better Although it still took way too long, if you consider Python 3.0 was released about 10 years ago.

> most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 I often see this but I think it's a perception from the Internet/web world. I work for CGI, all (I'm not kidding) our softwares (we have many) are 2.7. You will never see them used "on the web/Internet/forum/network" place but the day-to-day job of millions of peoples in the industry is 2.7. And we are a tiny focused industry. So I'm sure there is many other in…

Well, the CGI industry had money, competent people, and 10 years to upgrade. An entire decade. And a LOT of tooling and documentation to help.

I made a lot of code conversion from 2 to 3. Most of them took me a couple hours to a few days.

I'm currently working on a 2.7 project that will never migrate because they literally patched the cpython runtime, but you can't freeze a whole community because some will take bad technical decisions or accumulate tons of technical debt.

Now, Python 2.7 will not stops working after 2020. It's just that we, as a community, will stop to pay the price for the ones that didn't move. If you want to stay there, you'll pay a commercial actor for it.

In 2020 centos 6 will stop received updates. Will you go complain that the new RPM are not compatible ? No, either you update, or you pay commercial support.

Ruby and node did it in a few months and told the community to move or die. Nobody complained.

Perl took so long the language has been forgotten.

PHP literally canceled the version 6, and made it taboo.

We gave years, and means, then extended the deadline, and heard nothing but complaining since.

I won't pretend the migration was masterfully executed. The whole 2/3 debacle was painful.

But, it's been since 2008, come on.

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#109

Post by crististm »

sametmax wrote: post #108
Narann wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> most popular packages are now compatible with Python 3 I often see this but I think it's a perception from the Internet/web world. I work for CGI, all (I'm not kidding) our softwares (we have many) are 2.7. You will never see them used "on the web/Internet/forum/network" place but the day-to-day job of millions of peoples in the industry is 2.7. And we are a tiny focused industry. So I'm sure there is many other in…

Well, the CGI industry had money, competent people, and 10 years to upgrade. An entire decade. And a LOT of tooling and documentation to help. I made a lot of code conversion from 2 to 3. Most of them took me a couple hours to a few days. I'm currently working on a 2.7 project that will never migrate because they literally patched the cpython runtime, but you can't freeze a whole community because some will take bad…

2.7 is a different language than 3.x.

You could argue that 2.y is also a different language than 2.x but this is besides the point: as long as there is a compiler for that language and it works (for your definition of works) you don't need to translate your programs in another language just because you have money.

Re: Python 2 will be replaced with Python 3 in the next RHEL major release

#110

Post by throwaway2048 »

saurik wrote: post #77
moviuro wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#!/usr/bin/env python2 There, fixed it. Much like `#!/usr/bin/env bash` for bash scripts instead of `#!/bin/bash` (which won't work on many OSes) https://github.com/search?q=%23%21%2Fusr%2Fbin%2Fenv+python2...

You can't "there fixed it" for the infinite number of projects that exist in the field that this breaks. "It never worked on FreeBSD" is very different from "it no longer works on new versions of RHEL".

if changing a hashbang is that big of a deal, the codebase is completely mortibund going forward, and support is dropping in 2020 anyways.

I don't think people should be concerned about people that are that totally resistant to change.

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