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Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

theguardian.com

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Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#151

Post by yters »

bradjohnson wrote: post #143
yters wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment is a legitimate disincentive. Are there going to be fewer prostitutes when it is safe and easy? If the field is inherently injurious to women, why should we incentivize women to become prostitutes in any way?

Adult women are not helpless children and I believe that any societal pressure that they might feel to pursue a damaging lifestyle can be dealt with before any punishment for exercising bodily autonomy should ever be considered.

Perhaps, but making it easier for them to make bad choices is not the way to go.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#152

Post by esarbe »

yters wrote: post #136
esarbe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All these issues -- potential physical and mental problems -- you cite apply to other professions as well. Why treat prostitution any different? Obviously there's a need for this kind of work. Why not make sure that at least the workers doing this kind of job enjoy the same protection as other workers?

Other professions are legitimate needs. Such as soldiers, police, firefighters. A society needs them to function well. Prostitution destroys society. It breaks up families. It leads to fatherless children. It spreads STDs. It teaches men to treat women as sex objects. It denigrates sex in general to pleasure instead of its main purpose of creating the next generation.

Families break apart because the persons involved don't make the necessary effort to uphold the relationships anymore and there are no economical necessities that hold the people involved together. Not because of prostitution.

Prostitution (might) spread STDs because there is no regulation and oversight, no health-check mandate for prostitutes (of either gender).

All those issues you cite don't really stem from prostitution and making/keeping prostitution illegal will not make them go away.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#153

Post by bradjohnson »

yters wrote: post #142
esarbe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but now you've lost me. You say -- to paraphrase -- 'the True Feminist only speaks what's good for women and only I decide what's good for women'. That's not an argument, it's a dogma.

Say your kid decided it is best for him to eat ice cream all day and play in the street. Who actually knows what's best for him, you or the kid? This is not particular to feminism. If we can clearly see someone choosing a self destructive lifestyle (i.e. drugs), even if it is what they really want, our responsibility is to help them get out of it.

If your brand of feminism has you comparing adult women to children incapable of deciding what is best for themselves, I think you've lost the point somewhere.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#154

Post by yters »

yters wrote: post #128
orthecreedence wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> harm reduction in mind. Yep. I'm seeing many, many comments about how prositution is bad. I'm not seeing any that suggest workable alternatives. Most seem to be socialist-leaning (attaching market incentive to sex is bad), but we don't have socialism, and sex workers need protection now . Ok, so whether or not we agree that prostitution is bad, what do we do about it? I think legalizing/regulating makes a lot more…

Are people more likely to do something that is safe or is dangerous? We can make similar arguments for all illegal activities. Why don't we make murder safer for the murderers? They're going to murder anyways, so we might as well keep one of the parties alive and healthy. Why don't we just give thieves all the free money they want? They are going to steal anyways, so we might as well make it more convenient for them.…

Why is willingness the magic that makes it alright? Many actions are engaged in willingly that are not good. Suicide is the primary one that comes to mind.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#155

Post by lovich »

yters wrote: post #113
esarbe wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex work is work. Just like a job in a mine or on an oil rig it might be an unhealthy, dangerous job with serious health repercussions. But it's a job nonetheless. Would I prefer a world where men didn't have to waste their health in mines and women theirs in prostitution? Sure, I'm all for a UBI. But it is hypocrisy to treat these professions and the health implications they have as any different.

Mining is a legitimate need. Men don't need prostitutes. What men need is to treat women as equal human beings, and not a vessel for their lusts.

So sometimes people from one gender or the other can't get sex through casual relationships through one reason or the other, like large groups of men dieing in a war, China's gender imbalance, a shitty personality, etc.

Are you saying that they don't need sex at all and should go without? Because that's a pretty puritanical viewpoint that hasn't been backed up by any sort of history.

Additionally "need" can be pretty subjective. People's sex drives are some thing they are born with. We don't "need" rare earth metals to have shiny electronics so why is it ok to have people forced into mining by it being their only choice economically?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#156

Post by Nrsolis »

orthecreedence wrote: post #75
phkahler wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sex is one of the last places where women have more power than men. It's interesting that you point that out. Some claim that plenty of women use their sexuality to manipulate men, to trade sex for resources (marriage), and other such things. By legalizing prostitution you deprive the rest of the women from being able to do this - guys don't have to buy the cow when they can get the milk on an as-needed basis for…

Those managers and husbands and whoever else are still bound by social rules. Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically make it ok to go out and bang a bunch of hookers if you're married or have elevated social status. Are they more likely to do it? Maybe. But I think woman can still use their sexuality outside of the legal sex market to achieve the things they want, if that's what they choose to do.

Is it moral to use sex to manipulate someone into giving you the things that you want?

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's something that can't be construed to ALSO cause harm.

I would be devastated to know that a partner was only having sex with me to further some other goal. I don't see how this is good for the parties involved.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#157

Post by yters »

Freestyler_3 wrote: post #149
yters wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if someone wants to do something, that doesn't mean it is good for them. We as a society should not incentivize people to do self harm, even if the person chooses the self harm. It is essentially incentivizing women to commit suicide.

What isn't good for them? How do you get from sex to suicide? And how far can society go when dictating what a person can or can not do? People are allowed to smoke and drink. People have sex without payments happening too.

To be a sex worker, a woman is having multiple sex partners per day. Her exposure to STDs, and abuse in general, is increased exponentially. That is essentially suicide.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#158

Post by esarbe »

yters wrote: post #148
yters wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. Lust makes one person dehumanize another person and use them as a tool for their own pleasure. Anytime we dehumanize each other it is bad, regardless of the negative consequences, of which there are many (broken families, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse, etc.)

Consent is not a magic wand that makes all actions moral. And yes, brokeness will be with us for all time. So, your solution is to just allow things to get worse? Sometimes you have to take a hard stand on things to help people not destroy themselves.

It's not as if there were any absolute moral values. And if everybody involved can give informed consent, why should that not be enough?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#159

Post by yters »

yters wrote: post #136
esarbe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All these issues -- potential physical and mental problems -- you cite apply to other professions as well. Why treat prostitution any different? Obviously there's a need for this kind of work. Why not make sure that at least the workers doing this kind of job enjoy the same protection as other workers?

Other professions are legitimate needs. Such as soldiers, police, firefighters. A society needs them to function well. Prostitution destroys society. It breaks up families. It leads to fatherless children. It spreads STDs. It teaches men to treat women as sex objects. It denigrates sex in general to pleasure instead of its main purpose of creating the next generation.

Families don't break apart randomly. One of the main reasons is spouses cheating.

Even regulated, the number of STD exposures climbs exponentially with prostitution. That is just the unavoidable math of having massive numbers of sex partners.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#160

Post by orthecreedence »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #150
orthecreedence wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those managers and husbands and whoever else are still bound by social rules. Legalizing prostitution doesn't magically make it ok to go out and bang a bunch of hookers if you're married or have elevated social status. Are they more likely to do it? Maybe. But I think woman can still use their sexuality outside of the legal sex market to achieve the things they want, if that's what they choose to do.

That's only true for the middle class. Once your social status is sufficiently high it doesn't matter. Case in point, the current POTUS is known for banging hookers.

Sure, but those people aren't harmed by banging illegal hookers already, so legalization of sex work is irrelevant to them anyway.
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