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We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

darklang.com

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Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#111

Post by gnulinux »

kichik wrote: post #40
citilife wrote: post #2

I like the premise, but at $3000/month it'd be hard to live in SF (which is a requirement). More importantly though, it appears the goal is to lock-in startups, then as they scale you make more money. For Dark, this makes total sense and is a good business model, for a new startup - it seems like an unnecessary risk.

It doesn't sound like they have limitations on where you live. They only ask that you come to their SOMA office every day. You can live in a more affordable place like Oakland and take BART or Redwood City and take Caltrain.

$3000 a month is incredibly low for Bay Area even if you live in Oakland.

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#112

Post by BryantD »

pbiggar wrote: post #64
BryantD wrote: post #38

Missing info: how much will it cost to use the Dark platform?

Long term, that's an open question! However, we're targeting utility pricing, not premium pricing. That said, since we're so early we really have no idea. For our first user, it'll be free for quite a while, and then we'll make it work :)

Thanks!

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#113

Post by gnulinux »

ggggtez wrote: post #74
pbiggar wrote: post #60

Lots of folks asking exactly what Dark is so answering separately. tl;dr Dark is a programming language and service. Our goal is to allow you to build backends without having to deal with the endless accidental complexity in software today. (Accidental complexity meaning everything from infrastructure and storage, to syntax errors, etc). What does that mean exactly? Dark is a language, and editor and a PaaS, combined…

Heh, so, $3000 for 1 month of alpha testing your buggy product, essentially... or roughly $19 an hour?

Not to mention it's in SF, which puts it around the poverty line. With that money you'd have to eat rice&beans and noodles for a month to alpha test a product.

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#114

Post by pbiggar »

projectramo wrote: post #101
pbiggar wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. Conceptually, Dark is most similar to your django/aws example. There's a lot more types, though in a really good way. We're aiming for all the advantages of static typing, coupled with all the advantages of dynamic typing. For example, you use the same types all the way from DB schemas to API validation.

Thanks for clarifying. Can you share what language darklang uses (or what language it is based off of)? I imagine if it is a language the startup already uses, it would lower the risk of trying it.

TBH, we took inspiration from a ton of different places, including a lot from Clojure, Python, Elm and Rust, as well as Rails and Django.

Dark is probably closest to an ML (like OCaml/ReasonML or Elm), with some interesting twists that we think will greatly increase productivity and decrease complexity, most notably tight integration with its editor and platform.

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#115

Post by pbiggar »

boksiora wrote: post #87
pbiggar wrote: post #60

Lots of folks asking exactly what Dark is so answering separately. tl;dr Dark is a programming language and service. Our goal is to allow you to build backends without having to deal with the endless accidental complexity in software today. (Accidental complexity meaning everything from infrastructure and storage, to syntax errors, etc). What does that mean exactly? Dark is a language, and editor and a PaaS, combined…

you can get a lot more people to try the language if you make closed beta

Yes! this is the first step of many. We are definitely not ready for a beta yet, even a closed one.

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#116

Post by FireBeyond »

lilyball wrote: post #96
FireBeyond wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that you are extrapolating on one data point. The quote I think you're using to say "this is for startups": > We pay you (or your company) $3000 a month. In contrast to the multitude of other more personal references: > We'll pay you $3000/mo > Dark is a new tool to help you build a complete scalable app in an afternoon. How many startups are working on "building an app in an afternoon"? > You come to the offi…

I mean, you certainly could be a sole operator working for yourself and be interested in this, but the point remains that the $3k isn't meant to replace whatever compensation you would have received if you didn't take this offer. I guess the important point here is you're not supposed to quit your day job with the expectation that Dark will pay you a livable wage to build your pet project.

> I guess the important point here is you're not supposed to quit your day job with the expectation that Dark will pay you a livable wage to build your pet project.

I absolutely agree, I think phrasing it as a stipend/some other offer than what sounds like a salary would help a huge deal.

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#117

Post by cbluth »

gnulinux wrote: post #109
temuze wrote: post #62

> We’re creating a new programming language, tightly integrated with an editor, compiler and PaaS, to allow engineers to build distributed applications using high-level primitives. Not sure if this is ambitious enough. Maybe you should make a database, too :) But seriously, you'd have to convince me of a lot of things before I consider using a service like this, much less basing a business off of it: 1) The bar for y…

Also, sorry but I'll (probably) never use anything other than emacs. I already invested ~10 years of customization. Most people did the same for other editors, IDEs etc. Its way too ambitious to make your own editor for a programming language. No project uses just one language. I'm not going to use emacs for 3 other languages and your app for one other. If your language is way too good, I'll try port an emacs mode an…

The whole thing reeks of a hoax

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#118

Post by vortico »

pbiggar wrote: post #56
vortico wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For this reason, I wouldn't recommend that anyone try this. I expect that the Darklang employees will present a really early/difficult platform to the startup and require that the developer expand the platform as they go, which will be more friction that actually developing the startup's software. Most applicants will realize this halfway through the interview, and the one that takes this offer will be the one who is…

Apart from who'll have to fix it, I agree with you. This is a risk, and our software is early and buggy. That's why we're paying you to use it!

Unfortunately "we'll fix it for you" isn't nearly enough unless you have 100 dedicated employees waiting at their keyboards for requests for the one "test" user you're hiring. Even environments like Erlang with years of support from hundreds of companies and individual programmers, you will run into blocking problems like "we need a binding to this database" or "my editor needs plugin support" or "we need a debugger and way to inspect memory".

A language environment emerges using baby steps.

- spark interest from hobbyists wanting to try new ideas

- provide enough inertia to the platform for the hobbyists to want to join as users or contributers

- accept the role as a contribution manager (accepting source code if open-source, or finances if proprietary), while still developing core stability by yourself (the language designer)

- then encourage small companies to try it to solve problems that are made easy by a niche of your environment

Re: We'll pay you $3000/mo to build your startup on Dark

#120

Post by pbiggar »

vortico wrote: post #118
pbiggar wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from who'll have to fix it, I agree with you. This is a risk, and our software is early and buggy. That's why we're paying you to use it!

Unfortunately "we'll fix it for you" isn't nearly enough unless you have 100 dedicated employees waiting at their keyboards for requests for the one "test" user you're hiring. Even environments like Erlang with years of support from hundreds of companies and individual programmers, you will run into blocking problems like "we need a binding to this database" or "my editor needs plugin support" or "we need a debugger…

That is how it has gone for many languages, but it isn't the only way. Examples of languages that have gone differently include Java, Javascript, Erlang and Visual Basic.

More generally, if we look at devtools adoption as a whole (and I suspect Dark's adoption will more closely resemble a B2B devtool than a programming language), I don't believe those steps you outline are sequential at all. As an example, PHP was adopted by small companies extremely quickly, as were Parse and Firebase.

So I understand your point, and I'm not going to claim that you're wrong, but there are definitely other adoption models that potentially apply here.

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